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Selling an Alternative Reality (Read 130 times)
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Selling an Alternative Reality
12/01/19 at 08:13:44
 
How to Win the Next U.S. Election: Start Selling an Alternative Reality
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-win-next-us-election-start-selling...

Trump and his supporters are using the same strategies as science deniers.

....because they are the science deniers... Huh
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #1 - 12/01/19 at 09:17:36
 
Serowbot wrote on 12/01/19 at 08:13:44:
....because they are the science deniers... Huh



Flat-Earther, LOL!!

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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #2 - 12/01/19 at 10:21:17
 
Youz guyz should just admit it,...
...it's not the media, it's the facts you don't like.


Facts, and truth, two distinct entities, obviously......however.
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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #3 - 12/02/19 at 05:01:22
 
I have a simple question.
Who is worse, someone who denies the science of man made global warming, or someone who accepts the science but proposes completely wrong solutions that cost lots of $$ and make the problem worse ?

In effect the solution is worse than the problem.
You have ants in your house. You call 2 guys who will fix it.
Guy#1 says - I'll solve the problem by setting fire to your house.
Guy #2 says - I will not do that.

Who do you hire ? And you have to hire one of these 2 - if you don't pick one, at random one will get the job.

I'd take guy 2 FWIW.

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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #4 - 12/02/19 at 06:02:24
 
srinath wrote on 12/02/19 at 05:01:22:
I have a simple question.


A binary proposition as limited and non-representational as the imagination that spawned it.   Prejudice and science are antithetical.
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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #5 - 12/02/19 at 06:25:07
 
Mavigogun wrote on 12/02/19 at 06:02:24:
srinath wrote on 12/02/19 at 05:01:22:
I have a simple question.


A binary proposition as limited and non-representational as the imagination that spawned it.   Prejudice and science are antithetical.



This is what we who play soccer call "same side goal".

I'm agreeing with the climate change science. I just don't agree with the "solutions".

We don't need to go from Washington DC to Atlanta via high speed rail that pollutes only slightly less than a plane and costs tax payers billions. We need to not go from DC to Atl at all unless its for leisure.
That would cut down the need to 1/5th or 1/10th of current demand and we can fly those people.

We don't need people to go from the tropics to Sweden or Canada or US or wherever, in US/Canada/Sweden they have to heat their houses and drive cars. In India we do neither. That's why the numbers are something like 30X from the most to the least.

The most effective ways to cut co2 are all nearly free to the public. In effect some of the methods actually save $ for every person, and they don't take an action either, they stop an action they currently are doing.

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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #6 - 12/02/19 at 08:12:47
 
srinath wrote on 12/02/19 at 06:25:07:
This is what we who play soccer call "same side goal".

I appreciate the sentiment.

We don't need to go from Washington DC to Atlanta via high speed rail that pollutes only slightly less than a plane and costs tax payers billions.


Rail is reported to be about 3 times more energy efficient than road transport.   Some forms of aviation are more efficient, others radically less.   Aside from the transport impact, the cost of road vehicle production and infrastructure is also part of the mix, as saving extend beyond consumed fuel.  Same goes for aircraft production.   Moreover, behavior can't be ignored- folks haven't been taking private helicopters everywhere in part because they aren't a financially viable solution for any but the ultra wealthy; while that may be changing, the calculus of practical impact of moving people from A to B depends on usage.   In many situations, fast trains are an opportunity to curtail impact of commuting populations.   Without doubt if people don't move, they mostly don't incur transportation liabilities- but many do, and those liabilities compound, even when fractional.

In India we do neither. That's why the numbers are something like 30X from the most to the least.

In many temperate parts of the world, homes have no active provision for cooling or heating.   When lows are in the 50's, burning to stay warm is a luxury or superfluous.   On the other end of the spectrum, heat has rendered many municipalities dependent on burning to cool an existential requirement.  At least in the US, most would not adopt a Touareg or Bedouin lifestyle to live in Phoenix.   There is an architectural legacy inadequate to the environmental challenges of efficient, low-impact living in most parts of the US.   Penny-wise and pound foolish, we are far behind the investment curve.

The most effective ways to cut co2 are all nearly free to the public. In effect some of the methods actually save $ for every person, and they don't take an action either, they stop an action they currently are doing.

While a spectrum, I recognize the reflection of the underlying conceit as fundamentally true.   Significant impacts may be had without changes to infrastructure, more with minimal investment, more with moderate and significant commitments.   It seem clear we are at a point of needing all those tools- a real 'war effort' to confront our existential climate catastrophes.

Let's return to animal husbandry.   From what you've voiced, you seem to view your consumption in isolation from the rest of the world: my needs, the impact of this one animal.   There are about 7.7 billion of us.  Each one of us can not have a pair of wool socks- there isn't enough arable land for supporting the required sheep.   The prospect of everyone eating beef is even more absurd- not just the catastrophic direct environmental consequences of clearing land and the resource to feed and water a cow, but the massive amount of methane produced and the inevitable consequence of that 30-times more potent than CO2 greenhouse gas.   We live in an era of science-fiction population levels- the bucolic fantasy of a local cow to serve every consumer's dinning preference is unsustainable.    Estimates put the bison population of what is now North America at around 30 million in the pre-Columbian, pre-industrial era.  The United States alone now host over 94.8 million cows; with many of the natural greenhouse gas balancing systems impaired and our industrial liabilities, we have left behind a world where farming large ungulates is sustainable.



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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #7 - 12/02/19 at 10:04:03
 
Right on all these points. Which is why I say, let us do the free stuff first. It may compound enough to give people the incentive to stop eating meat or cut way back on it etc or whatever is the more $$$ and painful next rung. In 10+ years across 3 presidents we have simply gone no where on what would be a simple piece of legislation. In others - like migration of people from the tropics to the poles - we are going backwards. Mainly the solutions are all political there and hence a massive question mark.

I wont even debate human hand in climate change. That part is settled, but the solution is no solution at all, its a way to rob us blind while still burying the planet.

And sadly meat substitutes are garbage. If we need to stop eating meat - and my mom in her late 70's has not touched meat ever neither has my entire family and millions of others, my wife in her mid 40's is a life long vegetarian, and vegetarians don't eat burgers with something that looks like a beef patty only its made from used tires or something like that. They eat food that was made without meat, designed around the fact that its not meat. Veganism as advocated by the fake meat crowd is stupid. Its also pretty black on the environment, industrial manufacturing of meat = 99% of the expense with 1% of the benefit, and it turns people off veganism for good in some cases.

I will however also tell you. Its a diet bound to give most people diabetes unless you under eat to the point of being malnourished. This is one big reason why India does not have any Olympic gold medals - or for 1.2 billion people, they have very very few. Now if the whole world had to move to such a diet, I'm sure it will level the playing field a lot though. In any case, much of the civilized world over eats regardless of what they eat, its a separate problem that has to be tackled, again a free solution, but man will the people protest if you try to take their third donut away. Like the super size soda tax LOL.

Cool.
Srinath.
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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #8 - 12/02/19 at 13:25:41
 
At first, you seem to have your head screwed on straight- but then you make these unhinged claims that a quick check of the record may easily debunk.

srinath wrote on 12/02/19 at 10:04:03:
Its a diet bound to give most people diabetes unless you under eat to the point of being malnourished. This is one big reason why India does not have any Olympic gold medals - or for 1.2 billion people, they have very very few.


There is no national correlation of the sort you assert between diabetes and vegetarianism.   Veterinarians enjoy a lower rate of diabetes than their omnivore neighbors around the world.   Like your notion that eating cows has less environmental impact than eating plants, this is another weird counter-factual thing you believe.

As for veterinarian athletes and your Olympic-metric, there are plenty of vegan and veterinarians, including medalists.  A cursory review of Olympic medal totals places India in the company of other omnivores.  You could perform a brief review of vegan body builders for illustrations of what is possible.  You seem to have some animus toward vegetarianism that prevents reasoned discernment.   Or maybe you're just trolling.
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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #9 - 12/03/19 at 05:21:33
 
Mavigogun wrote on 12/02/19 at 13:25:41:
At first, you seem to have your head screwed on straight- but then you make these unhinged claims that a quick check of the record may easily debunk.

srinath wrote on 12/02/19 at 10:04:03:
Its a diet bound to give most people diabetes unless you under eat to the point of being malnourished. This is one big reason why India does not have any Olympic gold medals - or for 1.2 billion people, they have very very few.


There is no national correlation of the sort you assert between diabetes and vegetarianism.   Veterinarians enjoy a lower rate of diabetes than their omnivore neighbors around the world.   Like your notion that eating cows has less environmental impact than eating plants, this is another weird counter-factual thing you believe.

As for veterinarian athletes and your Olympic-metric, there are plenty of vegan and veterinarians, including medalists.  A cursory review of Olympic medal totals places India in the company of other omnivores.  You could perform a brief review of vegan body builders for illustrations of what is possible.  You seem to have some animus toward vegetarianism that prevents reasoned discernment.   Or maybe you're just trolling.


Most of my family is vegetarian, and nearly all of them are fat and diabetic. You're confusing vegan for healthy. Remember sugar, flour and frying up 1 and dunking it in the other etc is still vegan. The vegans of US become vegan with some higher purpose in mind. In India they don't, they are just that way. I think if we turn the whole world vegan, soon enough we'll go the India way. The Indian diet was all fine when we were working in the fields doing physical labor for 8-10 hrs a day, likely in the burning sun. Now they all sit at a desk and the diet cant be reversed in any meaningful way.
Now most diets from say 50 yrs or older, were designed to keep you fat because most of the time people were malnourished, being too skinny was the biggest problem. The Indian diet does that extremely well, and I hate to say it, I have over 15 family members who I am dragging back to being less diabetic and less fat and healthier. Its like pulling teeth. There are 30yr olds who are fat and diabetic. And I'm not even talking my parents generation, I'm talking my cousins.

And no, India's Olympic tally is poor and worse than poor when you consider we have had over a billion people since about 1985. At one point we checked and Luxemborg (if I remember) had more medals than India did. Seriously you saying that we're on par with other omnivores just tells me everything I need to know about how well you research things. We need to be 65-70% of China's tally to put it in simple terms. And we're about to lose to Luxembourg. Brilliant.

Forget it, you are pushing an ideology, much like my climate change stance, I don't care to debate that with you or anyone else. I have 50yrs of research on myself. Much like I accept climate change, I accept that indian style vegan diet will leave you diabetic by 30. I'm only interested in the solution. And no more veganism isn't the solution for the ones I am working with, except, the yare vegans and will be for life. Rest assured, no cows are farting in my cure of obesity or diabetes (except in my case, where its already occurred)

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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #10 - 12/03/19 at 12:29:36
 
srinath wrote on 12/03/19 at 05:21:33:
Most of my family is vegetarian, and nearly all of them are fat and diabetic. You're confusing vegan for healthy.

You're confusing your family's personal idiosyncrasies for the rest of the world.   You use your anecdotes as an excuse for dispensing with what is actually known about the world.   There's nothing good to be said about it.   Your family is unhealthy.   Your family are vegetarians.    Is that linked?   Not a bad question- if you are really attempting to discover the answer.   A diet exclusively of either potato chips or pork rinds will have devastating health consequences that has nothing to do with being vegan or carnivore.

Forget it, you are pushing an ideology...

That's just another way to discount record as opinion.   I'm not offering my opinion.   It's one thing to be ignorant and prejudiced, but to build excuses for willful ignorance is worse than insipid- it's a tedious waste of everyone's time.

...much like my climate change stance, I don't care to debate that with you or anyone else. I have 50yrs of research on myself.

And this is the crux of the Tall Table problem: yet another guy who just shows up to hear himself bloviate.   'I have a life time of research into my own opinions.   I'm not here for any sort of growth, so stop trying to plant seeds -I'm infertile ground.'
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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #11 - 12/03/19 at 12:48:53
 
Vegetarian does not equal healthy. That part I agree with you on. I believe it is not even linked. Veganism is neither a necessary nor sufficient for a healthy diet. As in - those 2 are unrelated. Again, I am after getting everyone healthy, and no one wants to not be a vegetarian. Hence I'm saying you're pushing the ideology that veganism = healthy. I'm Not discounting record as opinion, because it is not record. For it to be record, it has to be necessary and sufficient. Its neither.

And again - I'm accepting as true the science of climate change, much like proving that veganism is unrelated to health. IMHO those 2 are pretty much fact. The only question is what do we do about it.

Nice to see you have conveniently kept quiet about the Olympic medals etc - but that's a no brainer. India is about on par with Luxemborg - or atleast was in 1985. Anyway that is record, literally and easily verifiable.

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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #12 - 12/03/19 at 13:19:15
 
srinath wrote on 12/03/19 at 05:21:33:
Much like I accept climate change, I accept that indian style vegan diet will leave you diabetic by 30.


This is demonstrably false.   Reference the number of diabetics in India, number of veterinarians, population over 30, diabetes rates for Indians over 30 compared to rates of other nationals past that same age threshold.   What you "accept" doesn't change what is.   Your family's diet sounds like it is a poor match for them- maybe for anyone.   It is not representational of most experience.

Vegetarian does not equal healthy. That part I agree with you on. I believe it is not even linked.

Veganism is neither a necessary nor sufficient for a healthy diet.


Your belief is in conflict with the record.   The diets of the longest lived peoples has been examined in depth, by many scientists.

And again - I'm accepting as true the science of climate change, much like proving that veganism is unrelated to health. IMHO those 2 are pretty much fact.

'I accept as true that gravity is a thing, and I accept that unicorns fart clouds of cotton candy'- putting a reasoned understanding next to a bald fiction does not lend credibility.   Your capacity to weigh merit is broken.

Nice to see you have conveniently kept quiet about the Olympic medals etc - but that's a no brainer. India is about on par with Luxemborg - or atleast was in 1985. Anyway that is record, literally and easily verifiable.

Another great example of pointing to a pile of data and claiming your opinion/belief/bizarre theory may be found in there.

Who medals in the Olympics is a long studied topic; culture and economics are obvious contributors.   A break down of medal distribution by GDP, population, and geographic distribution are all readily available.  All could be explored, and a weight determined for each factor, including the percentage of vegetarian population of participating nations- but such an effort would be fruitless here, as you aren't really interested in facts, ready to defend your flavor of prejudice with specious rationals at every turn.   You just make stuff up and lend that synthesis greater weight than actual knowledge.

I'm disappointed, srinath- at first blush you present as a thoughtful guy.   Turns out, not so much.

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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #13 - 12/03/19 at 15:50:18
 
 Can you provide some sort of reference as to where you have found that Veganism/Vegatarian is likely to create the onset of diabetes.

 Having been to more than 700 diabetes education courses in 30 states by 40 or more different organizations, not once has there been mention of being vegan a high-risk factor.  This includes multiple trips to Europe which does the same thing.

 In most cases vegan/vegetarian diets are part of the alternate diets that better manage blood sugar.
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Re: Selling an Alternative Reality
Reply #14 - 12/03/19 at 16:21:47
 
Eegore wrote on 12/03/19 at 15:50:18:
 Can you provide some sort of reference as to where you have found that Veganism/Vegatarian is likely to create the onset of diabetes.

 Having been to more than 700 diabetes education courses in 30 states by 40 or more different organizations, not once has there been mention of being vegan a high-risk factor.  This includes multiple trips to Europe which does the same thing.

 In most cases vegan/vegetarian diets are part of the alternate diets that better manage blood sugar.


He he he, I didn't say veganism leads to or causes diabetes. It has no correlation - I said that clearly. Now, remember, donuts are vegan. And my folks eat those and the Indian versions of them and the spicy ones and chips and flour fried and dunked in sugar etc etc all day long.

Now you have heard of the keto diet I'm sure. OK that is 5% carbs and 20% protein and 75% fat. Impossible to do as a vegan, there is no vegan product with a better than 1:1 ratio of carbs to protein.

Given that keto as a vegan is impossible and donuts are vegan, its really easy to see how you can fall into diabetes rather easily and not get yourself out. I backed out of my type 2 diabetes and lost a good bit of weight via keto and IF. Since keto isn't possible for a vegan, I'm pushing these people toward IF, but, IF fails miserably if you eat to calorie fulfilment in a non keto diet. If you do IF and a keto diet, its bloody effective. This is a completely different topic, if you're interested in knowing more, open a separate thread.

Just for the part highlighted in pink - Those diets are far far more restrictive than just "vegan" and its those restrictions that can help, the vegan part is just to add to the pain and since the push is for the ideology and these are ideologues that push these onto like minded individuals, its an easy push. Like the little robot in Judge Dredd says - eat recycled food, its great for the environment, and its OK for you.

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