SuzukiSavage.com - At Least 9 Dead In Dayton

Eegore

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #195 - 08/12/19 at 06:35:31

"If those guns, with their serial numbers ground off, could still be traced back to the person that initially purchased it - that would deter illegal sales."

This is true.

Yes it's not "Constitutional" but no matter how one might try to spin the logic - registered firearms are less likely to be used in crime. That does not mean that it will reduce "Mass Shootings" no matter how many times one argues the semantics of what "Mass Shooting" is. This is due to most stranger to stranger public-gathering-based high rate of fire shootings are acquired legally.

The real issue is the surrounding circumstances such as the massive amounts of unregistered firearms. The Pro-gun overreach into the CDC that prohibits professional and accurate study. The belief that personal unregistered weapons will stop organized military force. The fear that law can be altered to the point that the registered owner can be charged with murder if the weapon is stolen from them and used in a crime. The fact that many gang related gun crimes are not planned with consequences to the shooter taken into account. Etc. etc.

This does not mean that anyone who is willing to accept the fact that registered items are historically less likely to be used in crime is anti-gun and wants all guns taken away, or even registered.

It just means they are capable of seeing reality.

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WebsterMark

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #196 - 08/12/19 at 07:11:05

The fact that registered guns are less likely to be used in the commission of a crime is not exactly man bites dog news. The vast, vast majority of guns and their owners (I believe we came up with ridiculous numbers in the 99.9999% range or something close to that) are never used in the commission of a crime.

I've yet to see proposed gun legislation that would actually have a high likelihood of reducing gun violence other that confiscation.

What are the specific details of the ownership and the guns used in El Paso, Dayton, Las Vegas, Sandy Hook and maybe we'll throw in San Bernardino. If the latest gun legislation would have done nothing to stop those, honestly, what's the point?

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T And T Garage

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #197 - 08/12/19 at 08:11:31

WebsterMark wrote on 08/12/19 at 07:11:05:

The fact that registered guns are less likely to be used in the commission of a crime is not exactly man bites dog news. The vast, vast majority of guns and their owners (I believe we came up with ridiculous numbers in the 99.9999% range or something close to that) are never used in the commission of a crime.

I've yet to see proposed gun legislation that would actually have a high likelihood of reducing gun violence other that confiscation.

What are the specific details of the ownership and the guns used in El Paso, Dayton, Las Vegas, Sandy Hook and maybe we'll throw in San Bernardino. If the latest gun legislation would have done nothing to stop those, honestly, what's the point?

Well, in the case of mass shooting - yeah, all 200 plus this year - the majority of those are done with illegal guns. We had over 40 shooting incidents this weekend in Chicago. You think any of those guns were legally owned?

As to the mass shooting carried out in El Paso, Dayton, etc - those would have probably had less fatalities had there been limits/restrictions on the availability of assault rifles/semi-autos and high volume magazines. And before you cons cry - no, I'm not looking to immediately ban all semi-autos, but they should be handled/sold/licensed differently than other weapons available to the general public.

You can argue these points until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is - we have more gun deaths in this country because we have the most guns - period. And even more guns are not going to change that.

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28416 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton Reply #198 - 08/12/19 at 08:15:08 WebsterMark wrote on 08/12/19 at 07:11:05: (I believe we came up with ridiculous numbers in the 99.9999% range or something close to that) are never used in the commission of a crime. You just called your own made up stat ridiculous...
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MnSpring

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #199 - 08/12/19 at 08:38:39

Eegore wrote on 08/11/19 at 19:48:23:

Federal law requires nothing more than State ID and ignorance of the person's background.

That is not true, it does Not say, 'ignorance'.
Saying, 'ignorance', is implying something completely different, to people that do not know and understand that law.

And the reason to change words is ?

The wording is: ' have reasonable cause '. Which is quite different than, 'ignorance'.

Having reasonable cause, is many things, including, what does this transaction, 'feel' like.

When you trade/sell guns what do you do beyond making sure they have valid State ID?

First order of business is their DL/ID, Then a photo copy of it, or writing down the information it contains.
(Someone does NOT want you to do that, That falls under, 'Due Diligence')
Next, a Bill of sale, Listing the seller/buyer, the firearm, make model ser#.
This is a very simply, 'Due Diligence' or some say say, CYA.

Do not use the word, 'ignorance', in place of, 'does not know', in this situation.

It may be used in the situation:
"A person is ignorant about flying a 747, because they don't know how"
Not in a situation, where it is, Implied, a person selling/buying a firearm, is ignorant

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
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WebsterMark

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #200 - 08/12/19 at 08:45:05

Well, in the case of mass shooting - yeah, all 200 plus this year - the majority of those are done with illegal guns. We had over 40 shooting incidents this weekend in Chicago. You think any of those guns were legally owned?

Probably not a single one. Which, as always, begs the question, why would you think more laws would change that?

As to the mass shooting carried out in El Paso, Dayton, etc - those would have probably had less fatalities had there been limits/restrictions on the availability of assault rifles/semi-autos and high volume magazines. The shooter drove 10 hours to carry out his plan. He wrote and extensive paper on why and what he assumed would be he last writings since he planned on dying. You think he wouldn't illegally buy extended magazines or simply take the couple seconds to switch magazines? It's not like the expected to be confronted by armed citizens.

You can argue these points until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is - we have more gun deaths in this country because we have the most guns - period. And even more guns are not going to change that.
I will argue some of those points. Per 100,000 citizens, we're a ways down the list, in 2016 I see we were 9th. But, to your bigger point, sure, there are too many gun deaths. Sure, the 300+million guns in the country play a role. But a larger role is played by culture. The vast majority of gun crimes are isolated in a few zip codes within every major city's poor neighborhoods. And before you blame poverty, remember that in Missouri as is I'm guessing the same in Illinois, the poorest counties are in rural areas where gun ownership is extremely high. Its people with an acceptable level of violence and access to illegal guns. I don't see any proposed law that is going to change that.

And before you cons cry - no, I'm not looking to immediately ban all semi-autos, but they should be handled/sold/licensed differently than other weapons available to the general public.
Maybe you're telling the truth ( I have my doubts) but that's not what many Democratic politicians say.

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WebsterMark

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #201 - 08/12/19 at 08:46:24

Serowbot wrote on 08/12/19 at 08:15:08:

WebsterMark wrote on 08/12/19 at 07:11:05:

(I believe we came up with ridiculous numbers in the 99.9999% range or something close to that) are never used in the commission of a crime.

You just called your own made up stat ridiculous...

Grin

Back in the day, I'd think that was funny. Now I'm wondering if your Trump Derangement Syndrome has so damaged your mind, you're serious.

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T And T Garage

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #202 - 08/12/19 at 08:53:25

WebsterMark wrote on 08/12/19 at 08:45:05:

Well, in the case of mass shooting - yeah, all 200 plus this year - the majority of those are done with illegal guns. We had over 40 shooting incidents this weekend in Chicago. You think any of those guns were legally owned?

Probably not a single one. Which, as always, begs the question, why would you think more laws would change that?

Registration laws - new ways of serializing guns, etc. Laws don't stop criminals, duh. But if you restrict the tools, that deters many.

As to the mass shooting carried out in El Paso, Dayton, etc - those would have probably had less fatalities had there been limits/restrictions on the availability of assault rifles/semi-autos and high volume magazines. The shooter drove 10 hours to carry out his plan. He wrote and extensive paper on why and what he assumed would be he last writings since he planned on dying. You think he wouldn't illegally buy extended magazines or simply take the couple seconds to switch magazines? It's not like the expected to be confronted by armed citizens.

Again, criminals don't follow the law - duh. Had this guy's access to semi-autos been restricted to getting them illegally, that would have been more of a deterrent - absolutely.

You can argue these points until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is - we have more gun deaths in this country because we have the most guns - period. And even more guns are not going to change that.
I will argue some of those points. Per 100,000 citizens, we're a ways down the list, in 2016 I see we were 9th. But, to your bigger point, sure, there are too many gun deaths. Sure, the 300+million guns in the country play a role. But a larger role is played by culture. The vast majority of gun crimes are isolated in a few zip codes within every major city's poor neighborhoods. And before you blame poverty, remember that in Missouri as is I'm guessing the same in Illinois, the poorest counties are in rural areas where gun ownership is extremely high. Its people with an acceptable level of violence and access to illegal guns. I don't see any proposed law that is going to change that.

Again... criminals don't follow laws... DUH! Restriction, registration, new ways of serialization are pretty much the only way to go. No - not banning, restriction.

And before you cons cry - no, I'm not looking to immediately ban all semi-autos, but they should be handled/sold/licensed differently than other weapons available to the general public.
Maybe you're telling the truth ( I have my doubts) but that's not what many Democratic politicians say.

Your bias clouds your vision.

Sad.

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MnSpring

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #203 - 08/12/19 at 09:13:01

Eegore wrote on 08/12/19 at 06:35:31:

This does not mean that anyone who is willing to accept the fact that registered items are historically less likely to be used in crime is anti-gun and wants all guns taken away, or even registered.

A firearm can be, 'traced'.
(To punish the criminal)

The need to have every firearm in the USA, 'registered' in a central data base. Would only be necessary if someone wanted access to the central database, so they could go to every home, of every person, and know exactaly how many,and what every gun is they have.

It would not stop a criminal, from committing a crime.

That would be very beneficial to a Socialistic Government.
Which has, altered, rewritten, eliminated, much of the Constitution.
"For The Good Of The People"
To know exactaly who has, and what they have, to they can, 'pick them up'.
Of Course, 'For The Good Of The People'.

Anyone who is not willing to accept the fact that guns, that are centrally registered will be taken away at some time.
Means they are not capable of seeing reality.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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MnSpring Serious Thumper Offline Younger than most people my age. Posts: 9055 Minn Gender:	Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton Reply #204 - 08/12/19 at 09:16:58 T And T Garage wrote on 08/12/19 at 08:53:25: restrict the tools, Already understand your, 'Common Sense' Gun laws are, PUNISH EVERYBODY ELSE, that uses those tools. And then coddle the criminal.
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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28416 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton Reply #205 - 08/12/19 at 09:31:48 MnSpring wrote on 08/12/19 at 09:16:58: Already understand your, 'Common Sense' Gun laws are, PUNISH EVERYBODY ELSE, that uses those tools. And then coddle the criminal. Tools.... Right... "Hey Bill,.. pass me the AK, this lug nut's really stuck"...
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WebsterMark

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #206 - 08/12/19 at 09:54:16

T And T Garage wrote on 08/12/19 at 08:53:25:

WebsterMark wrote on 08/12/19 at 08:45:05:

Well, in the case of mass shooting - yeah, all 200 plus this year - the majority of those are done with illegal guns. We had over 40 shooting incidents this weekend in Chicago. You think any of those guns were legally owned?

Probably not a single one. Which, as always, begs the question, why would you think more laws would change that?

Registration laws - new ways of serializing guns, etc. Laws don't stop criminals, duh. But if you restrict the tools, that deters many.

As to the mass shooting carried out in El Paso, Dayton, etc - those would have probably had less fatalities had there been limits/restrictions on the availability of assault rifles/semi-autos and high volume magazines. The shooter drove 10 hours to carry out his plan. He wrote and extensive paper on why and what he assumed would be he last writings since he planned on dying. You think he wouldn't illegally buy extended magazines or simply take the couple seconds to switch magazines? It's not like the expected to be confronted by armed citizens.

Again, criminals don't follow the law - duh. Had this guy's access to semi-autos been restricted to getting them illegally, that would have been more of a deterrent - absolutely.

You can argue these points until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is - we have more gun deaths in this country because we have the most guns - period. And even more guns are not going to change that.
I will argue some of those points. Per 100,000 citizens, we're a ways down the list, in 2016 I see we were 9th. But, to your bigger point, sure, there are too many gun deaths. Sure, the 300+million guns in the country play a role. But a larger role is played by culture. The vast majority of gun crimes are isolated in a few zip codes within every major city's poor neighborhoods. And before you blame poverty, remember that in Missouri as is I'm guessing the same in Illinois, the poorest counties are in rural areas where gun ownership is extremely high. Its people with an acceptable level of violence and access to illegal guns. I don't see any proposed law that is going to change that.

Again... criminals don't follow laws... DUH! Restriction, registration, new ways of serialization are pretty much the only way to go. No - not banning, restriction.

And before you cons cry - no, I'm not looking to immediately ban all semi-autos, but they should be handled/sold/licensed differently than other weapons available to the general public.
Maybe you're telling the truth ( I have my doubts) but that's not what many Democratic politicians say.

Your bias clouds your vision.

Sad.

Again, your ideas restrict nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

And history shows my vision is 20/20 compared to your Mr. Magoo eyesight when looking at the world so you can stow that.

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T And T Garage

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #207 - 08/12/19 at 10:05:25

WebsterMark wrote on 08/12/19 at 09:54:16:

T And T Garage wrote on 08/12/19 at 08:53:25:

WebsterMark wrote on 08/12/19 at 08:45:05:

Well, in the case of mass shooting - yeah, all 200 plus this year - the majority of those are done with illegal guns. We had over 40 shooting incidents this weekend in Chicago. You think any of those guns were legally owned?

Probably not a single one. Which, as always, begs the question, why would you think more laws would change that?

Registration laws - new ways of serializing guns, etc. Laws don't stop criminals, duh. But if you restrict the tools, that deters many.

As to the mass shooting carried out in El Paso, Dayton, etc - those would have probably had less fatalities had there been limits/restrictions on the availability of assault rifles/semi-autos and high volume magazines. The shooter drove 10 hours to carry out his plan. He wrote and extensive paper on why and what he assumed would be he last writings since he planned on dying. You think he wouldn't illegally buy extended magazines or simply take the couple seconds to switch magazines? It's not like the expected to be confronted by armed citizens.

Again, criminals don't follow the law - duh. Had this guy's access to semi-autos been restricted to getting them illegally, that would have been more of a deterrent - absolutely.

You can argue these points until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is - we have more gun deaths in this country because we have the most guns - period. And even more guns are not going to change that.
I will argue some of those points. Per 100,000 citizens, we're a ways down the list, in 2016 I see we were 9th. But, to your bigger point, sure, there are too many gun deaths. Sure, the 300+million guns in the country play a role. But a larger role is played by culture. The vast majority of gun crimes are isolated in a few zip codes within every major city's poor neighborhoods. And before you blame poverty, remember that in Missouri as is I'm guessing the same in Illinois, the poorest counties are in rural areas where gun ownership is extremely high. Its people with an acceptable level of violence and access to illegal guns. I don't see any proposed law that is going to change that.

Again... criminals don't follow laws... DUH! Restriction, registration, new ways of serialization are pretty much the only way to go. No - not banning, restriction.

And before you cons cry - no, I'm not looking to immediately ban all semi-autos, but they should be handled/sold/licensed differently than other weapons available to the general public.
Maybe you're telling the truth ( I have my doubts) but that's not what many Democratic politicians say.

Your bias clouds your vision.

Sad.

Again, your ideas restrict nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

Well, my idea is restriction mark... duh! I don't have a proposal on how to do that, only that it needs to be done. See how that works?

And history shows my vision is 20/20 compared to your Mr. Magoo eyesight when looking at the world so you can stow that.

"Mr. Magoo"? Really? Are you happy you got your little jab in there?
(hey, 20/20 guy, where's the proof you promised me about the whole "fine people on both sides", huh? Nah - nevermind, you'll never admit you're wrong...lol)

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MnSpring

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #208 - 08/12/19 at 10:06:03

T And T Garage wrote on 08/12/19 at 05:36:08:

no local "gun safe zone" or local laws are going to stop them.

WHAT ??????
Did you just say:
no local "gun safe zone" or local laws are going to stop them
Do NOT work !!!!!!!
(Not even a FOID card ?)

Every single gun should be registered - no exceptions.
Makes collecting them, 'for the Good of the People', much easier.

safe to assume that there are other ways to "fingerprint" a gun

Describe those ways ?
Would they be like serial numbering every bullet and casing ?

Just for some people to know, filing off a ser #, is not a absolute.
Many, Many ways to recover what that number was.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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T And T Garage

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Re: At Least 9 Dead In Dayton
Reply #209 - 08/12/19 at 10:10:42

MnSpring wrote on 08/12/19 at 10:06:03:

T And T Garage wrote on 08/12/19 at 05:36:08:

no local "gun safe zone" or local laws are going to stop them.

WHAT ??????
Did you just say:
no local "gun safe zone" or local laws are going to stop them
Do NOT work !!!!!!!
(Not even a FOID card ?)

No, mn - criminals, by definition, don't obey laws... duh.

Every single gun should be registered - no exceptions.
Makes collecting them, 'for the Good of the People', much easier.

safe to assume that there are other ways to "fingerprint" a gun

Describe those ways ?

I don't know, but I know that there are indeed ways in the manufacturing process. Something as simple as the concept of RFID.

Would they be like serial numbering every bullet and casing ?

No.

Just for some people to know, filing off a ser #, is not a absolute.
Many, Many ways to recover what that number was.

Oh, really? How so?

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