SuzukiSavage.com - Conservatives: which is more important?

LostArtist Ex Member	Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Reply #30 - 03/25/19 at 12:49:39 let's put this another way.... which is more important, humane equal treatment of your fellow human or profit
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LostArtist

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #31 - 03/25/19 at 12:52:32

WebsterMark wrote on 03/25/19 at 11:38:50:

LostArtist wrote on 03/25/19 at 11:36:03:

so, maybe.....

Capitalism = the pursuit of money (the invisible hand of the marketplace moves to increase efficiency to increase profit)

Democracy = the pursuit of equality (one person one vote)

If that's the case, you can't compare and make a selection since they are different things.

Speaking of invisible hands, if you've not read this before, read it.

https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/

why not??

would you rather have the color red or a hamburger?

would you rather have a pencil or a wrench?

you get asked this all the time in capitalism, would you rather have $5 or a magazine?

puppy or baby?

coffee or a nap?

motorcycle or a paint booth?

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Eegore

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #32 - 03/25/19 at 12:54:41

which is more important, humane equal treatment of your fellow human

or

profit

Humane equal treatment.

I don't consider Democracy to be a requirement for that, nor do I consider positive asset acquisition to be inhumane.

Given the option to make financial decisions for myself, or to elect someone to do it for me, I would prefer to make my own financial decisions.

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LostArtist

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #33 - 03/25/19 at 12:59:14

Eegore wrote on 03/25/19 at 12:54:41:

which is more important, humane equal treatment of your fellow human

or

profit

Humane equal treatment.

I don't consider Democracy to be a requirement for that, nor do I consider positive asset acquisition to be inhumane.

you don't consider the idea that everyone has a basic sameness to their value a requirement for treating people humanely?

profit by itselt isn't inhumane.. but there't nothing about profit that requires humane or inhumane treatment on any level. whereas with democracy, you must consider the humanity of the person, otherwise why give them power to vote?

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Eegore

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #34 - 03/25/19 at 13:11:17

"you don't consider the idea that everyone has a basic sameness to their value a requirement for treating people humanely?"

I do. That is why I chose "humane equal treatment of your fellow human" over "profit".

I am just attempting to abide by the parameters of your question, which as far as I can tell is stating that a choice between Capitalism OR Democracy is to be made.

That choice is based off the idea that Capitalism = power, and Democracy = equality, even though I don't know how that is possible unless we simply redefine both.

It may be easier to not use the terms Capitalism or Democracy and just ask if we would rather have Equality with Profitability or Profitability without Equality. That's what you are asking am I correct?

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LostArtist

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #35 - 03/25/19 at 13:27:39

Eegore wrote on 03/25/19 at 13:11:17:

"you don't consider the idea that everyone has a basic sameness to their value a requirement for treating people humanely?"

I do. That is why I chose "humane equal treatment of your fellow human" over "profit".

I am just attempting to abide by the parameters of your question, which as far as I can tell is stating that a choice between Capitalism OR Democracy is to be made. NOPE

That choice is based off the idea that Capitalism = power, and Democracy = equality, even though I don't know how that is possible unless we simply redefine both. I've been asking for input on these definitions for awhile now..... so we could all be on the same page and have a consensus for this discussion

It may be easier to not use the terms Capitalism or Democracy and just ask if we would rather have Equality with Profitability or Profitability without Equality. That's what you are asking am I correct?

that's another way of wording my ORIGINAL posting, "WHICH IS MORE IMPORTANT" at no point in there did I say either or...

it was a ranking question, which you and others misunderstood and took all day to get back to my original question....

I said nothing about this excluding the other

and I NEVER defined capitalism as Capitalism = power... YOU DID

I feel like that scene in Men In Black 2 with the key in the pizza shop

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WebsterMark Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 13177 Gender:	Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Reply #36 - 03/25/19 at 13:28:04 I can see how it can be hard to separate the two, we've been born and raised in a culture that thinks the two are all but synonymous. But they aren't. I don't think they are, I'm not sure if anyone thinks they are. They are two separate systems.
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LostArtist

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #37 - 03/25/19 at 13:33:52

WebsterMark wrote on 03/25/19 at 13:28:04:

I can see how it can be hard to separate the two, we've been born and raised in a culture that thinks the two are all but synonymous. But they aren't.

I don't think they are, I'm not sure if anyone thinks they are. They are two separate systems.

sure they do, people think private ownership of property is an equalizing factor in humanity, this makes the serf on par with royalty back in the day, the difference between a slave and a free man, the right to own property... this elevates serfs and slaves to having to have some kind of human right.... the right to govern themselves and their property perhaps?

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WebsterMark

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #38 - 03/25/19 at 13:34:51

I'm the one who said in order to answer that question, which is more important, I asked can you have one without the other.

I don't believe you can, at least not in any manner in which either are functioning to a degree in which individual's lives are impacted.

Capitalism requires democracy to function effectively.
Democracy requires capitalism to function effectively.

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LostArtist

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #39 - 03/25/19 at 13:42:16

WebsterMark wrote on 03/25/19 at 13:34:51:

I'm the one who said in order to answer that question, which is more important, I asked can you have one without the other.

I don't believe you can, at least not in any manner in which either are functioning to a degree in which individual's lives are impacted.

Capitalism requires democracy to function effectively.
Democracy requires capitalism to function effectively.

that's a cop out.

to use Eegore's framing of the question: would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality?

to be fair, Eegore said "would rather have Equality with Profitability or Profitability without Equality." but obviously we'd all choose "Equality with Profitability" so this: would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality? is a better question for contrasting the ideas

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WebsterMark

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #40 - 03/25/19 at 14:03:39

so this: would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality? is a better question for contrasting the ideas

In that case, since you're metaphorically putting a gun to my head and making me choose between two things you say are in the same category, but I say are not............ I pick Profitability without Equality.

Humans are not content to just exist. We push outward. The idea of everyone of us being as unique as sardines in a giant school or a flock of birds moving in unison is appalling.

Biblically speaking, Heaven itself is not populated with Saints all of equal stature. A hierarchy exist.

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LostArtist

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #41 - 03/25/19 at 14:46:37

WebsterMark wrote on 03/25/19 at 14:03:39:

so this: would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality? is a better question for contrasting the ideas

In that case, since you're metaphorically putting a gun to my head and making me choose between two things you say are in the same category, but I say are not............ I pick Profitability without Equality.

Humans are not content to just exist. We push outward. The idea of everyone of us being as unique as sardines in a giant school or a flock of birds moving in unison is appalling.

Biblically speaking, Heaven itself is not populated with Saints all of equal stature. A hierarchy exist.

so is profitability the only aspect of humans that you think can be different?

equality does not mean hive mind.... we are not the Borg.

and again, it's not all or the other, so, I guess a better way of phrasing that would be:

would rather have more Equality with less Profitability or more Profitability with less Equality?

and then, at what level?

why are conservatives such all or nothing personalities?

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WebsterMark

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #42 - 03/25/19 at 15:36:22

so is profitability the only aspect of humans that you think can be different?

No. You gave me a choice between A and B.

why are conservatives such all or nothing personalities?

If this was just some long ploy to manipulate a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question so you could try and apply that to a political ideology, then shame on you.

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Eegore Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 8401	Re: Conservatives: which is more important? Reply #43 - 03/25/19 at 15:37:29 would rather have Equality without Profitability or Profitability without Equality Profitability without Equality.
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LostArtist

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Re: Conservatives: which is more important?
Reply #44 - 03/25/19 at 16:49:58

WebsterMark wrote on 03/25/19 at 15:36:22:

so is profitability the only aspect of humans that you think can be different?

No. You gave me a choice between A and B.

why are conservatives such all or nothing personalities?

If this was just some long ploy to manipulate a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question so you could try and apply that to a political ideology, then shame on you.

so if I accuse you of putting the profit motive over doing the right thing.... now you know why

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