SuzukiSavage.com - Which is it?

FormerlyLostArtist

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #15 - 02/19/18 at 15:35:59

verslagen1 wrote on 02/19/18 at 15:29:09:

raydawg wrote on 02/19/18 at 14:23:58:

Now if I use Muslim terrorist , to label a ISIS member, it has the effect of saying Muslim are terrorist.

I disagree, no it doesn't.
When you say muslim terrorist, you identify their motivations and targets.
Same as the labels conservative and liberal. You bring to mind a stereotype that assumes certain interests and qualities.

so, let me see if I have this straight, cause I sure hope I don't, when you say Muslim terrorist, you identify their motivations and targets

is their motivation because they are Muslim? or are their targets Muslim?

I would assume their motivation is terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims., but that definition makes it sound like terrorism is more of a tactic, not a motivation.

So you are kind of saying that the motivation is their religion... which is condemning a whole religion based on the tactics used by an extremely small isolated percentage of that religion...

saying ISIS terrorist is a much more precise and more correct description of the problem, or maybe Middle Eastern terrorist since not all Muslims live in the middle east.

but if you like the simplification of stereotypes ... I hope you never learn how complicated and nuanced the world really is.

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MnSpring

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #16 - 02/19/18 at 16:16:56

Hear Lota talk about the, ‘Russians’ did this,
and that, and are responsible for doing … .

Would that not be, ‘Racist’ against, Russians ?
Just as the, Blind in one Eye, hard to see out of the other, ‘ SNOWFLAKE’, Kum-By-You Singing, Ultra-Progressive, ANTIFA Ideals Supporting, Fairy Dust Sprinkling, stand in the Street and CRYers.
Have stood up, and YELLED/SCREAMED, about, a person, saying, ‘Muslim’ ???????

Wait, Wait, That’s OK,
After all, Bama/B.Clinton, said some of the SAME, things as Trump has said.
And it was, Great, THEN !
But now, Person that said it, has small hands.

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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T And T Garage

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #17 - 02/20/18 at 06:11:22

FormerlyLostArtist wrote on 02/19/18 at 11:46:06:

WebsterMark wrote on 02/19/18 at 10:48:15:

1. Election security is so sacrosanct that a foreign country hiring professional Twitter trolls to spew false info is an "act of war."

2. We shouldn't even ask voters for the same ID they need to buy a six pack because there's no evidence of voter fraud.

Pick one.

I'm fine with both, but if you are going to do the ID, the government needs to pay for it or at least have it able to be done at the polls, since people are going to vote there anyway. Don't make poor, fixed income elderly folk go to the "county seat" or whatever special place that's 30 miles out of their way when they can barely walk to their own mailbox. Offer it online, send it to the voter via mail. These people have ALREADY taken all the required steps to vote, now you're changing the rules, you take responsibility to make the adjustments for your rule changes

Well put Lost. You make way too much sense.

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #18 - 02/20/18 at 06:16:40

WebsterMark wrote on 02/19/18 at 13:55:09:

I never see leftist on here staying quiet, I never see that on the news, I never see that on twitter, I never see that anywhere but in the real world. the people I deal with, are vocal and right of center but the default entertainment, media position is left of center.

Where are the 65 million from the last election? Are they all in inner cities with a few leftist in schools and here and there? Where are you guys....

Gee, when I ride the train, go to a sporting even, walk down the street - I don't see all these conservatives that supposedly are everywhere... Why is that?

See how dumb that sounds?

Tell me web - did you see that "little" women's march in February? Have you seen our president's approval ratings lately?

Yeah, all the "supposed" opposition probably doesn't exist....
Grin

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #19 - 02/20/18 at 06:23:17

raydawg wrote on 02/19/18 at 14:23:58:

Web, labeling is part of the narrative, I believe, of those who desire to separate and conquer.
It absolves them of having to defend their accusations, as it carries the negative connotations it’s meant to evoke.

It’s lazy, disengenous, and a disservice.

Agreed.

Think of it this way, I can call a person an extreme conservative, and folks who are looking to dissuade a person have a built in list of charges they are guilty of by association.

Hmmm... you don't do that with libs? (I can probably show you your posts where you did)

Now if I use Muslim terrorist , to label a ISIS member, it has the effect of saying Muslim are terrorist.

ray - that's no different than labeling any homegrown terrorist as a Christian terrorist. Why can't the majority of conservatives see that? (unless you're ok with anyone who believes in the Christian faith, to any degree, to be labeled as Christian terrorist)...

Of course folks who do this, justify it, and my POV is lame.

I think you will always find folks have more in common than that which separate us.
Opportunist just take advantage of it to promote themselves.

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WebsterMark

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #20 - 02/20/18 at 07:00:54

Christian terrorist are far and few between while Muslim terrorist are unfortunately, fairly common.

A Muslim who burns down his house to collect arson insurance is not a terrorist, he's a criminal. A Muslim who kills a man during a robbery is not a terrorist, he's a murderer. Similarly, a man who robs a store and shoots the clerk and he happens to go to a typical mainline denominational church is not a Christian terrorist. He is however a murderer.

The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist.

A terrorist has a very specific definition and it does not include the severity of the crime, the number of victims etc... The Las Vegas hotel shooter was not a terrorist for example. Tim McVey could be labeled a terrorist since he's attack had a political motive behind it, but it wasn't Christianity.

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raydawg

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #21 - 02/20/18 at 08:21:59

Web, the point I am trying to make is when folks try and use emotions, as a means of convincing folks, it speaks to the lowest element of intelligence.
Marketing and advertising are great examples and studies into how you hook a person quickly, with key phrases or claims....
Once that avenue is open, you can drive home your real intentions.
It’s no different that folks will gravitate toward their first impression.
To change that you will now need to convince them to remove it, before you can install even the truth....
Folks are stubborn, because this involved emotions, and that is perceived as personal.

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T And T Garage

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #22 - 02/20/18 at 08:23:13

WebsterMark wrote on 02/20/18 at 07:00:54:

Christian terrorist are far and few between while Muslim terrorist are unfortunately, fairly common.

Really? Where? Here in the US? Not so much.... sorry.

A Muslim who burns down his house to collect arson insurance is not a terrorist, he's a criminal. A Muslim who kills a man during a robbery is not a terrorist, he's a murderer. Similarly, a man who robs a store and shoots the clerk and he happens to go to a typical mainline denominational church is not a Christian terrorist. He is however a murderer.

The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist.

So why not call those Christian terrorists what they are?

A terrorist has a very specific definition and it does not include the severity of the crime, the number of victims etc... The Las Vegas hotel shooter was not a terrorist for example.

He's not???? Ok..... So that wasn't domestic terrorism... got it.. Roll Eyes

Tim McVey could be labeled a terrorist since he's attack had a political motive behind it, but it wasn't Christianity.

But he was brought up Christian. He believed in Jesus. Therefore, he's a Christian terrorist - using your criteria on Muslims, it fits.
You think these morons in isis are Muslim just because they say they are??? They kill more Muslims than non.... how is that Muslim??

The problem is, it's easy to blame a religion, a skin color, an income level rather than face up to what terrorism really is.

The Muslim ban didn't save anyone in that school. The Muslim ban didn't stop the Las Vegas shooter. The Muslim ban does one thing only - appeases the racists.

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MnSpring

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #23 - 02/20/18 at 09:43:14

It was said:
"...Christian terrorist are far and few between
while Muslim terrorist are unfortunately, fairly common. ..."

Then replied:
T And T Garage wrote on 02/20/18 at 08:23:13:

"... Really? Where? Here in the US? Not so much.... sorry..."

Now I ask, (as been said, many times)
"Prove It"
Your research?
The Web Sites that stated, factual, statics ?

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Which is it? Reply #24 - 02/20/18 at 09:46:38 Just because people oppose Trump doesn't make them right. He won. And his harshest critics are benefiting.
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WebsterMark

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #25 - 02/20/18 at 09:54:30

raydawg wrote on 02/20/18 at 08:21:59:

Web, the point I am trying to make is when folks try and use emotions, as a means of convincing folks, it speaks to the lowest element of intelligence.
Marketing and advertising are great examples and studies into how you hook a person quickly, with key phrases or claims....
Once that avenue is open, you can drive home your real intentions.
It’s no different that folks will gravitate toward their first impression.
To change that you will now need to convince them to remove it, before you can install even the truth....
Folks are stubborn, because this involved emotions, and that is perceived as personal.

As a sales and marketing guy I know 99% of decisions are made emotionally first and 'facts' are used to justify afterwards.

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WebsterMark

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #26 - 02/20/18 at 10:06:11

The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist.

So why not call those Christian terrorists what they are?

"The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist. "

I think I just did, didn't I?....

He's not???? Ok..... So that wasn't domestic terrorism... got it..

No, he wasn't. The last theory I read was his brother was being implicated in a child porno ring and he might have been involved. That doesn't seem a logical reason to us to shoot up a bunch of strangers but he clearly wasn't acting logically. At this point, no one knows his motive. If something comes out later that this was some type of anti-government motivation, then label him a domestic terrorist. if it comes out he wrote a letter saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, I kill these people....." then he's a Christian terrorist.

McVey is a classic example of a domestic terrorist.

But he was brought up Christian. He believed in Jesus. Therefore, he's a Christian terrorist - using your criteria on Muslims,

Again, I believe I just said the opposite. I said a Muslim who kills for money is not a terrorist, he's a criminal. I did just type that didn't I, I'm not imagining things am I. I'm sure that's what I typed....

And McVey was an atheist wasn't he? Wasn't one of his last statements the "I'm the Captain of my Soul" poem....? Besides, his attack wasn't to advance some religious cause or damage some other religion.

Point is, criminal behavior and terrorist behavior are two different things. It's like the difference between hate crimes and non-hate crimes. For example, in Chicago the other day, a few in the crowd chanted 'basketball' to the black hockey player. That term means nothing to me, but it does to a black hockey player. That word went from meaning one thing to meaning something entirely different.

Today in Chicago there is probably going to be at least one murder. Is that a terrorist act or a criminal act?

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raydawg

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Re: Which is it?
Reply #27 - 02/20/18 at 10:26:11

WebsterMark wrote on 02/20/18 at 09:54:30:

raydawg wrote on 02/20/18 at 08:21:59:

Web, the point I am trying to make is when folks try and use emotions, as a means of convincing folks, it speaks to the lowest element of intelligence.
Marketing and advertising are great examples and studies into how you hook a person quickly, with key phrases or claims....
Once that avenue is open, you can drive home your real intentions.
It’s no different that folks will gravitate toward their first impression.
To change that you will now need to convince them to remove it, before you can install even the truth....
Folks are stubborn, because this involved emotions, and that is perceived as personal.

As a sales and marketing guy I know 99% of decisions are made emotionally first and 'facts' are used to justify afterwards.

Your last paragraph, I agree, and it’s backwards, ain’t it......

Folks spend so much time trying to justify what they want to believe, as to what is reality.
I will use the debt ceiling as example.
Obama was against extending it as a senator, when Bush was for it.
When he was president, he was now for it, abandoning all his previous arguments, and those conservatives, who were for it under Bush, now speak the same argument senator Obama offered.

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WebsterMark Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 14339 Gender:	Re: Which is it? Reply #28 - 02/20/18 at 10:33:37 Nope, its right. You make emotional decisions and justify them afterwards with selected facts. Folks already know what they believe, they look for evidence that supports it.
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Re: Which is it?
Reply #29 - 02/20/18 at 11:43:50

WebsterMark wrote on 02/20/18 at 10:06:11:

The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist.

So why not call those Christian terrorists what they are?

"The guy who killed that abortion doctor is a Christian terrorist. The guy in Norway who killed those kids on the island is a Christian terrorist. "

I think I just did, didn't I?....

He's not???? Ok..... So that wasn't domestic terrorism... got it..

No, he wasn't. The last theory I read was his brother was being implicated in a child porno ring and he might have been involved. That doesn't seem a logical reason to us to shoot up a bunch of strangers but he clearly wasn't acting logically. At this point, no one knows his motive. If something comes out later that this was some type of anti-government motivation, then label him a domestic terrorist. if it comes out he wrote a letter saying "in the name of Jesus Christ, I kill these people....." then he's a Christian terrorist.

McVey is a classic example of a domestic terrorist.

But he was brought up Christian. He believed in Jesus. Therefore, he's a Christian terrorist - using your criteria on Muslims,

Again, I believe I just said the opposite. I said a Muslim who kills for money is not a terrorist, he's a criminal. I did just type that didn't I, I'm not imagining things am I. I'm sure that's what I typed....

And McVey was an atheist wasn't he? Wasn't one of his last statements the "I'm the Captain of my Soul" poem....? Besides, his attack wasn't to advance some religious cause or damage some other religion.

He took last rights.... so....

Point is, criminal behavior and terrorist behavior are two different things. It's like the difference between hate crimes and non-hate crimes. For example, in Chicago the other day, a few in the crowd chanted 'basketball' to the black hockey player. That term means nothing to me, but it does to a black hockey player. That word went from meaning one thing to meaning something entirely different.

Today in Chicago there is probably going to be at least one murder. Is that a terrorist act or a criminal act?

I can't speak to that. But since you call out Chicago, in St. Louis, you're more likely to get shot, so maybe you should ask yourself that question....

A any rate, to your credit, terrorism is defined as:
The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

I get that. But the overall point I make is that if you label an attack that is inspired by isis as "Muslim terrorism", then you must do the same for any Christian raised, domestic terrorist.

Yeah, I get it - "you did" in the statement previous - but that is the first time on this board I've ever seen it. We need to see that more in ALL media. The conservatives need to realize how it feels...

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