Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Squish band (Read 216 times)
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Squish band
02/08/18 at 03:33:49
 
I  know the standard way of tightening the squish band is shave the top of the cylinder. I've always wondered if it couldn't be reduced by removing the gasket under the base of the cylinder and sealing it with a thin coat of something like yamabond,or if heat sensitive ,something as simple as a gasket cut from aluminum foil, or am I being crazy? I welcome comments.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1433

Re: Squish band
Reply #1 - 02/08/18 at 06:31:26
 
On early Airhead BMWs, there is an aluminum base gasket. By the mid-70's, the gasket was eliminated, and 2 o-rings were used on the top stud holes. When I work on the early ones, I eliminate the base gasket and counterbore the underside of the cylinders for the late style o-rings. This does two things-it eliminates 2 gasket surfaces, raises the compression a tiny bit, and tightens the squish band a bit. Always a happier bike.
When Norton went to 850ccs, they had trouble with the cylinders murdering the base gaskets. They worked with Loctite to develop a gasket goop that could be used in place of the base gaskets. That product still exists.
So, IIRC, there aren't any o-rings on the cylinder base. Lose the gasket and goop it up.
I believe Lancer skimmed the head and the cylinder. And used a high compression piston. Kinda tells me the bikes can tolerate a lot more compression and a much tighter squish band.
Start with measuring the squish band with the stock used head and base gaskets. Then measure the used base gasket.
In there somewhere it would be good to actually measure the combustion chamber and calculate the compression.
My guess is that the bike could tolerate about .040"/1mm of squish. If this results in a really high compression ratio, start to lose the sharp edges on the valve pockets in the piston crown.
My 2 cents.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17866
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #2 - 02/08/18 at 17:24:23
 
I was able to find a remnant of a base gasket.....it squished down to 0.018", while a used head gasket is 0.025".

The flat piston top on the stock piston is 0.160" down from the top of the cylinder!  (NOTE.....later measurement was 0.172" with base gasket intact).

I measured the distance from the piston crown to the top of the wrist pin bore on a stock piston and it is 0.645".  The Wiseco is not a flat top piston, and it has a flat ring around the edge that is 0.670" from the top of the wrist pin bore - then when the dome starts it is 0.732 above the wrist pin (there are some valve reliefs cut in the piston).

All of my measurements are done with a dial caliper of Asian decent, and the accuracy is not guaranteed!
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 12/06/18 at 04:47:48 by Dave »  

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1433

Re: Squish band
Reply #3 - 02/08/18 at 17:41:22
 
Dave,
Was that .160" without head and base gaskets?
That's more like shoe-to-foot clearance  Shocked
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #4 - 02/08/18 at 20:37:12
 
Armen ,check out  Somender Singh - Groves (U.S. patent 6237579)
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #5 - 02/08/18 at 20:43:59
 
Dave, thanks for taking the time to do the measurements !
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1433

Re: Squish band
Reply #6 - 02/09/18 at 02:58:48
 
Batman,
Are you going to try those grooves on your head?
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
piedmontbuckeye
Senior Member
****
Offline

Go Bucks!

Posts: 496
Easley, SC
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #7 - 02/09/18 at 04:29:21
 
Dave wrote on 02/08/18 at 03:45:38:
"...and I believe the piston comes very close to the top of the piston at TDC.".


I hope so!!! Grin
Back to top
 
 

"The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17866
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #8 - 02/09/18 at 05:40:58
 
Well.....the piston stop about 3 dimes and a dog hair below the top of the cylinder.




I measured in the area without carbon on the piston this morning, and it is 0.172"

Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #9 - 02/09/18 at 22:42:22
 
Armen , I might ,this guy is no joke! I first read about him in  2004 in Mechanic's Illustrated ,at that time he was just doing it to Briggs and Stratton mower engines (flat heads), but even then they produced more hp with less fuel, and ran cooler exhaust temps.(I think that could only happen with more complete combustion ) Even if the groves didn't work ,would they do any harm? I think they would only aide in what your doing by  reducing the squish zone.
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/09/18 at 23:50:28 by batman »  

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17866
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #10 - 02/10/18 at 04:36:22
 
I watched several YouTube videos of folks with hacksaw blades and files.....but I didn't see anyone with actual test or dyno results.

Mr. Singh seems to believe in it and is trying hard to promote it.  If it really does provide a 20% improvement....it is hard to believe somebody hasn't paid the patent fees and put it into use on a production car or truck.

https://pesn.com/archive/2005/10/13/9600187_Design_to_Improve_Turbulence_in_Comb
ustion_Chambers/index.html
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 02/10/18 at 07:28:22 by Dave »  

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1433

Re: Squish band
Reply #11 - 02/10/18 at 05:46:39
 
Two things:
How long before the groves are full of carbon?
Are those sharp edges going to get hot in a high compression combustion chamber and provide a starting point for pre-ignition?
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17866
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #12 - 02/10/18 at 07:49:05
 
The squish on the Wiseco is better than stock - but it still may not be ideal.  The piston is really made for the DR650 - but it does work in the Savage and is better than stock.....perhaps it could be better.
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
batman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3806
osceola new york
Gender: male
Re: Squish band
Reply #13 - 02/10/18 at 09:23:37
 

Armen, check out  ,Herningg.com/singh/engine , a complete test of a Geo three cylinder engine with stock head and a Singh conversion head. A stock Savage motor with 8.5:1 compression will form about 850 lbs of pressure as the piston rises , try to think about how much velocity this will create in the slot, I don't believe carbon will have a chance of forming and causing hot spots. In singh's patent the slots were v shaped, which may have caused them to lose velocity and cause hot spots ,in the motor test above they were revised( by Singh) to straight slots 3/32 wide ,starting .040 deep at the outside and increasing depth at a 4.5 degree angle as they run toward the combustion chamber. I believe this will prevent any drop in velocity and thus keep any carbon from forming.
Back to top
 
 

my old work mates called me MacGyver
  IP Logged
Armen
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Half-Witted
Wrench-Jockey from
Jersey

Posts: 1433

Re: Squish band
Reply #14 - 02/10/18 at 15:19:28
 
So, it sounds like measuring the actual compression ratio and the squish band is a good idea  Wink

And don't forget to advance the cam timing after shaving the cylinder.

Hey Batman, why not yank the head on your bike and try it? One way to find out.

Dave,
If this bike really has .160"/4mm of piston to head clearance, that may be a lot of the reason the motor is so gutless.
Back to top
 
 

In theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they aren't...
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
06/01/24 at 12:38:42



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Squish band


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.