SuzukiSavage.com - He prayed.......

raydawg

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #15 - 10/03/17 at 17:19:20

Serowbot wrote on 10/03/17 at 16:39:23:

If you consider the claim that God grants free will,... why would he promise eternal life?...
Are you a good man,. if you only act like one to get to heaven?...
We are not donkeys... we shouldn't need to be led with a carrot...

You do not get to heaven by works....
By being good.

We are not led like a donkey....
But by a spirit.
Not to be good as in this worlds understanding, but to truth of self, which will bring knowledge and understanding greater than oneself.

You do not understand this, for you will yourself not to.

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Serowbot

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #16 - 10/03/17 at 17:51:56

Dawg, my response was to this...(I can't respond to arguments not yet made).

MShipley wrote on 10/03/17 at 16:22:06:

That would be sad......if there isn't then why do any of us care about anything? What's the point of being good?

The argument shifts with each reply....
Quote:

Forget reward, if there are no consequences for our actions why do we care.

Now it argues, punishment instead of reward...

Quote:

First for the sake of discussion let's look at that from a Christian, Biblical perspective. God does not promise eternity to anyone because they are good. In fact it says "all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory" humans are inately depraved and Justice would be eternal punishment. Jesus said it is not enough that we don't committ adultery but if we even consider it we are as guilty as committing it. God is Holy we are not. However, God does say he will have mercy on those that he chooses to have mercy on.

So, never pray for justice, you may just get that, rather pray for mercy, which none of us deserves.

We are never good enough that we obligate God to do anything.

Now, it negates the original contention... Saying behaviour will grant neither reward nor punishment...
In which case I am just as motivated as any Christian to act morally...

Quote:

Not to be good as in this worlds understanding, but to truth of self, which will bring knowledge and understanding greater than oneself.

Now it devolves into total nonsense...
No reward, no punishment, and now not even a request to be moral... just a search for inner knowledge...
Congratulations you have evolved into a Buddhist...

Look, as JOg has said... you can find just as many immoral people in religion as out of it...
It is virtually irrelevant...
Muslims are acting immorally in hope of a reward from God...
Christian PP bombers and shooters are the same.
Janeists are the only true peaceful followers... the more devout they are, the less dangerous the are... to the point of becoming immobilized from fear of causing harm.

Religion is myth... you pick the myth of your choice...
If there is a god,... he/she didn't create religion, it is man made.
...(if there is a god,.. I think he'd be pretty pissed about that)...

I am an atheist... there are 2700 gods I don't believe in.
You don't believe in 2699 of them...
We're really pretty close there... you are an atheist minus 1...

I act morally because I feel better being compassionate rather than hateful...
No promises, no darnations....
Why is that so hard to comprehend?...

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WebsterMark Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 12854 Gender:	Re: He prayed....... Reply #17 - 10/03/17 at 18:25:35 I think what he's talking about is altruism. Valid point but no other life form exhibits welfare towards another unless it benefits themselve or their group. Which leads back to the idea humans are unique so.....
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Serowbot

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #18 - 10/03/17 at 18:29:52

WebsterMark wrote on 10/03/17 at 18:25:35:

I think what he's talking about is altruism. Valid point but no other life form exhibits welfare towards another unless it benefits themselve or their group. Which leads back to the idea humans are unique so.....

Yes, we are... (but dogs are close Grin

)...
... but my point is we don't need religion for this.
We are unique due to our intellect... (which may have created religion),.. but, religion didn't create our humanity...

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MShipley

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #19 - 10/03/17 at 18:52:03

The initial statement had nothing to do with human intellect or capacity to be what we call (good). Yes people can choose to be (good) within a religious context or not. The statement was "What is the purpose of being good, why does it matter outside of a system of reward and consequences. Our intellect allows us to create social structures in Which people can pretend they are (good) . But what does it matter outside of staying out of jail which makes that behavior selfish.

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Serowbot

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #20 - 10/03/17 at 19:01:14

If you see a woman about to drive off with her purse on the hood,.. you don't tell her to please God, or to avoid jail...
You do it to be kind, because you're human...

My point is you can have any god you want,.. but you shouldn't need him to make you human...
If you depend on that,.. you are a sociopath.....
Normal human behaviour is communal... we have evolved that way...

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #21 - 10/03/17 at 20:11:38

So what's Wrong with the murderer/rapist? And What must that guy Do to change? Explain the
Catch me before I kill again
guys..
They Hate what they do.
But they Do it.
The shameless ones are beyond me to understand.

There's only one way to be changed.
We don't control the desires of the heart.
That can only be changed through prayers answered.
Yeah, we have Free Will
And his word written in our hearts
And we see where we fall short
And IF we try, WHY we are how we are can be seen.
Then we can take that to our Father and ask him to Change us.

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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.

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Serowbot

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #22 - 10/03/17 at 22:45:49

A murder/rapist may have been exposed to Jesus or not... in this country he most likely was...
It didn't take...
He is abhorrent to society...
Whether you pray or not is irrelevant to what he does...
Therefore, religion and God are irrelevant...

A psychopath will do what he will do...
We can't control his thoughts or beliefs,... and God seems to be indifferent.
We can only control his ability to do harm... Mental help might catch the ones that expose themselves... restrictions on the ability of an individual to do harm might help reduce the carnage.
Both would help.
Inaction does nothing.
God, it has been pointed out, don't care... Free will and all...
Thanks a lot, God...
Pray,.. but it's been stated that that means nothing as well.
I agree...
Sympathy, hope, prayer, and good wishes,.. are all empty without action.
Sh!t, or get of the pot...
Take some positive action...

In the Vegas case,.. I don't think mental evaluation would have helped,... but in other circumstances it might.
In the case of bombings, or car attacks, gun control wouldn't help... but in Vegas it would.
But,... you got to sh!t or get off he pot...
A famous general once said..."If you don't know what to do,.. do something"... "Doing nothing gets you nowhere"...

Are we happy with the way things are?...
Per capita,.. we have more violence, and mass violence than anywhere in the civilized world... What aren't we doing?...
We should do that...

PS.. you all hate my short answers...
Bet you hate my long ones too... Grin

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: He prayed....... Reply #23 - 10/04/17 at 02:20:27 We can't control his thoughts or beliefs,... and God seems to be indifferent. Didn't read what I said, did you?
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MShipley

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #24 - 10/04/17 at 08:58:03

Serowbot wrote on 10/03/17 at 19:01:14:

If you see a woman about to drive off with her purse on the hood,.. you don't tell her to please God, or to avoid jail...
You do it to be kind, because you're human...

My point is you can have any god you want,.. but you shouldn't need him to make you human...
If you depend on that,.. you are a sociopath.....
Normal human behaviour is communal... we have evolved that way...

See you have set up a Reward/Consequence system for yourself. If you do what you perceive to be the right thing then you get the reward of feeling good about yourself that you are human and don't suffer the consequences of being labeled a sociopath and feeling bad about yourself.

Now there is nothing wrong with that, we all do it. It only becomes a problem in the fact that all people don't agree with your view of what makes someone human vs sociopath.

ISIS believes they are doing the right thing. So did Adolph Hitler.

So if there is NO MORAL LAW GIVER. Then who determines what is right or wrong? Consequently if we define it by what we individually think is right and wrong then why does any of it matter? It is only your opinion. Perhaps it is your view that the right thing to do is tell the lady she left her purse, however the guy next to you may feel it is right to stay out of her business. The moral high ground is only determined by ones point of view making both irrelevant and meaningless.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: He prayed....... Reply #25 - 10/04/17 at 09:08:38 Just as there have always been and always will be poor, so have there always been and always will be unbelievers. Unlike lefties, we don't believe you should be arrested for not believing.
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raydawg

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #26 - 10/04/17 at 09:50:14

Serowbot wrote on 10/03/17 at 22:45:49:

A murder/rapist may have been exposed to Jesus or not... in this country he most likely was...
It didn't take...
He is abhorrent to society...
Whether you pray or not is irrelevant to what he does...
Therefore, religion and God are irrelevant...

A psychopath will do what he will do...
We can't control his thoughts or beliefs,... and God seems to be indifferent.
We can only control his ability to do harm... Mental help might catch the ones that expose themselves... restrictions on the ability of an individual to do harm might help reduce the carnage.
Both would help.
Inaction does nothing.
God, it has been pointed out, don't care... Free will and all...
Thanks a lot, God...
Pray,.. but it's been stated that that means nothing as well.
I agree...
Sympathy, hope, prayer, and good wishes,.. are all empty without action.
Sh!t, or get of the pot...
Take some positive action...

In the Vegas case,.. I don't think mental evaluation would have helped,... but in other circumstances it might.
In the case of bombings, or car attacks, gun control wouldn't help... but in Vegas it would.
But,... you got to sh!t or get off he pot...
A famous general once said..."If you don't know what to do,.. do something"... "Doing nothing gets you nowhere"...

Are we happy with the way things are?...
Per capita,.. we have more violence, and mass violence than anywhere in the civilized world... What aren't we doing?...
We should do that...

PS.. you all hate my short answers...
Bet you hate my long ones too... Grin

I like your long ones...uh, replies, I mean Embarrassed

This you wrote: Therefore, religion and God are irrelevant...

This is the crux of any society.

It is the hub that holds the spokes, that hold the wheel, that turn the society.....

What is that hub?

Its called, belief.

You assign your belief as right, or superior, that leave no room for others, as this kitchen can have only one cook.

You call my belief, irrelevant, I say they are my hub.

Why do you challenge my belief?

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WebsterMark

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #27 - 10/04/17 at 09:57:17

Below is my post from another thread. I think it applies here as well. Anything and everything can be and has been used as a weapon. The internet is no different than a gun in that sense. Why are we so focused on guns where there are just as many other items of danger? You can't stop everthing and I think we've got enough gun laws as it is now.

Something else, I heard Bill O'Reily say gun deaths are the price of freedom in the US. Maybe so, but I heard a lot of people ready to crucify him over that comment.

However, how many people go online and read how to commit suicide and then do it? Or how to commit fraud? How many elderly are easily robbed by being hacked? Didn't a girl 'text' her ex-boyfriend to committing suicide?

Honestly, just how much more violence is there in the USA because of the immediate access information, and certainly to information that is false? Here in St Louis, we are still having protest over police shootings and much of that anger is over events that never occurred yet were widely disseminated online to a gullible audience. Hands up Don't shoot is one. In the latest case, there is a false believe of a 'kill shot' from 6" away from the victim's head that never happened. But 99% of these idiots blocking freeways here in St Louis believe it happened. Some nut is going to kill a St Louis cop and it will be because of the false news spreading.

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #28 - 10/04/17 at 11:28:31

Serowbot wrote on 10/03/17 at 22:45:49:

A murder/rapist may have been exposed to Jesus or not... in this country he most likely was... It didn't take... He is abhorrent to society... Whether you pray or not is irrelevant to what he does...
Therefore, religion and God are irrelevant... A psychopath will do what he will do... We can't control his thoughts or beliefs,... and God seems to be indifferent. We can only control his ability to do harm... Mental help might catch the ones that expose themselves... restrictions on the ability of an individual to do harm might help reduce the carnage. Both would help. Inaction does nothing. God, it has been pointed out, don't care... Free will and all... Thanks a lot, God... Pray,.. but it's been stated that that means nothing as well. I agree... Sympathy, hope, prayer, and good wishes,.. are all empty without action. Sh!t, or get of the pot...
Take some positive action... In the Vegas case,.. I don't think mental evaluation would have helped,... but in other circumstances it might.
In the case of bombings, or car attacks, gun control wouldn't help... but in Vegas it would. But,... you got to sh!t or get off he pot...
A famous general once said..."If you don't know what to do,.. do something"... "Doing nothing gets you nowhere"... Are we happy with the way things are?... Per capita,.. we have more violence, and mass violence than anywhere in the civilized world... What aren't we doing?...
We should do that... PS.. you all hate my short answers... Bet you hate my long ones too... Grin

Bot, I like the, ’thinking’, answers, much more than the, ‘Drive-Bys’.

To that, can you expound why:
“…gun control wouldn’t help… but in Vegas it would…”

If a world, with Out, ANY, Firearms in it,
would that event have happened ?
Would that, ’Nut-Case’, used a different method?

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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .

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MShipley

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Re: He prayed.......
Reply #29 - 10/04/17 at 12:53:11

PS.. you all hate my short answers...
Bet you hate my long ones too... Grin

[/quote]

I don't mind the long replies. What I don't like (and I do understand that I am guilty sometimes) is the mud slinging on this forum. What this forum needs is more conversation and less justification.

Diversity is God's creation. I have no problem with different beliefs and ideas. We NEED to be able to openly discuss issues if we are ever to resolve problems. You have never seen me get angry on this forum. You have seen me bow out because conversation stops and justification begins.

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