SuzukiSavage.com - Knocking/Clacking

Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #75 - 11/12/17 at 13:08:00

Dave wrote on 11/12/17 at 12:53:59:

The crankshaft does have all kinds of weird colors and marks on it....they come that way. If you are in doubt.....go to eBay and look at the photos of the cranks that are for sale.

See I was doing that but the pictures were all the wrong angle or just really poor quality. I think I'll believe it's fine, as I never have found any metal shavings in my oil. Thank you for the reassurance! I'm putting the rotor back on and I'll ship everything back to you in a day or two. Is there any special trick to getting the rotor back on straight? And is there a torque that I should aim for on the nut that holds the rotor in place? I can't find anything for it.

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Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18099 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End? Reply #76 - 11/12/17 at 17:01:44 Your clymer manual doesn't list a value for the rotor bolt? Learn to use the Table of Contents in the Technical Section on this forum....it has all kinds of useful stuff: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098848534
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Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #77 - 11/12/17 at 17:07:29

Dave wrote on 11/12/17 at 17:01:44:

Your clymer manual doesn't list a value for the rotor bolt?

Learn to use the Table of Contents in the Technical Section on this forum....it has all kinds of useful stuff:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098848534

Doh, it's closer to I apparently don't know what to call it. I was looking at the book and that table but my mind didn't click on it being the rotor bolt hahaha

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Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #78 - 12/31/17 at 21:54:04

Everything is back together and it runs smooth. The knocking is completely gone, so yay! But the downfall is that I messed up somewhere. I took it around the block to get gas and air up the tires, and there was a massive oil leak from the head/cover. I think I messed up the seal when I was applying the permatex ultra grey. Is there a diagram or picture which shows where exactly I was supposed to be applying sealant? I'm thinking I missed somewhere, or I snapped a bolt...... any possible ideas? If I can't figure it out, I might need to take it to a mechanic, which I want to avoid.

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #79 - 12/31/17 at 22:31:42

That's a real close proximity to the actual recommended sealer, but I would be uncomfortable with it. I have some of that stuff and I have had the real thing and they are different. If you got it on very thin and carefully worked the bolts down and just kept making passes until the sealer stopped giving, then it might be okay, but I don't know how it sets up over time. A chunk that hardens and falls into the oil could be a problem I guess..

You don't need a mechanic.
You survived a big job. It's just details now.
You sure you got the sealing washers and bolts right?
Where is the leak?

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Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #80 - 01/01/18 at 01:41:22

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 12/31/17 at 22:31:42:

That's a real close proximity to the actual recommended sealer, but I would be uncomfortable with it. I have some of that stuff and I have had the real thing and they are different. If you got it on very thin and carefully worked the bolts down and just kept making passes until the sealer stopped giving, then it might be okay, but I don't know how it sets up over time. A chunk that hardens and falls into the oil could be a problem I guess..

You don't need a mechanic.
You survived a big job. It's just details now.
You sure you got the sealing washers and bolts right?
Where is the leak?

I will take the tank off tomorrow evening after work to try to get a closer look. It isn't a light leak, the battery box was coated and the cylinder had a light coating from it too. It is all over the right side, and seems to be coming from either above or at the seam for the head cover. I'll get a more detailed idea tomorrow, and maybe some pictures if I see anything that jumps out.

Thank you, you're right. The cylinder and crankshaft were definitely bigger undertakings. I think I'm musty a little frustrated, but improvement is improvement.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End? Reply #81 - 01/01/18 at 04:40:21 The thickness of the sealer determines the gap between the cam and cover. Thick sealer means a sloppy fit, and that means less oil pressure in the places that aren't really well served already.
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Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #82 - 01/01/18 at 23:11:16

Alright, last night I dried up most of the oil that I could see and tonight I took it apart. Up on the head, only one area had oil on it and what do you know, it's the bolt (130MM) I thought I maybe had snapped. I marked it below. I took it out and measured it, and unless 0.5mm broke off, it is still complete. So I am thinking that the threads inside the casing are stripped. In fact, I'm thinking the PO did so because in hindsight, there seemed to be the remnants of a helicoil on the bolt when i pulled it out, I just didn't know what that was at the time. Is there a fix that doesn't involve redoing those threads? I am pretty sure I can't do that myself haha. I read somewhere on here that I can maybe use a longer bolt, or some kind of sealant? Considering it's an oil passage, I want to err on the side of caution.

Everything else is relatively oil free, although I might start it up for 3 seconds in the AM with that bolt back in place as best I can to see if I see any other oil flying around, since I cleaned up a bit yesterday. Unless ya'll think that's just a little too dangerous? Huh

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« Last Edit: 01/02/18 at 00:45:41 by Steph »

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Dave

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #83 - 01/02/18 at 02:33:26

Do you have the sealing washer on that bolt?

If that bolt is stripped.....you are screwed. There is no way to do a proper repair without taking everything apart again. You might try a longer bolt - however the existing bolt goes very close to the bottom of the hole, and the threads in the aluminum stop a bit short of the bottom of the hole.....there really isn't much hope of getting a better bite with a longer bolt (and this is a major reliability issue.....as an improper repair could break at any time and leave you stranded).

I got the long helicoil and parts to fix it.....but you will have to take it apart. You may be able to leave the cylinder on and do the work without removing the cylinder - however it will be hard to keep the metal shavings out of the oil passage.....maybe shove a Q-Tip or similar method to block the hole. I prefer to have the cylinder removed so I can use the drill press to keep the hole and tap straight - if you do it by hand and get it crooked the long bolt may not go into the hole properly - there is 4" of cylinder head on top of the hole that will prevent the screw from going into the helicoil properly if you install it crooked.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1448209911

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Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #84 - 01/02/18 at 09:05:46

Dave wrote on 01/02/18 at 02:33:26:

Do you have the sealing washer on that bolt?

If that bolt is stripped.....you are screwed. There is no way to do a proper repair without taking everything apart again. You might try a longer bolt - however the existing bolt goes very close to the bottom of the hole, and the threads in the aluminum stop a bit short of the bottom of the hole.....there really isn't much hope of getting a better bite with a longer bolt (and this is a major reliability issue.....as an improper repair could break at any time and leave you stranded).

I got the long helicoil and parts to fix it.....but you will have to take it apart. You may be able to leave the cylinder on and do the work without removing the cylinder - however it will be hard to keep the metal shavings out of the oil passage.....maybe shove a Q-Tip or similar method to block the hole. I prefer to have the cylinder removed so I can use the drill press to keep the hole and tap straight - if you do it by hand and get it crooked the long bolt may not go into the hole properly - there is 4" of cylinder head on top of the hole that will prevent the screw from going into the helicoil properly if you install it crooked.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1448209911

Well that is not the reply I was hoping to wake up to, I'll admit. The sealing washer is certainly on there, and the bolt is able to turn indefinitely without actually torquing. So lemme make sure I got this straight.

To absolutely properly repair this, I would need to remove and disassemble the engine again. This would involve replacing all the gaskets again, most likely, as well as taking the cylinder to a machinist to place the helicoil/repair the threads since I do not have any tools that are able to do that, especially not reliably. So I am looking at $100ish or more aren't I? Not to mention time.

Considering it seems to be the only actual leak, is there no way to secure it from above using something from the chrome headcovers to keep the bolt securely pushed in and some gasket sealer to form a tighter seal? Maybe I am being too hopeful here, but I want to make sure I at least voice the only possible option I can think of.

I was working on this around work last time, if I do have to I think I will take some time off work and just get it done in a 3 day weekend or something. I seriously miss riding.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End? Reply #85 - 01/02/18 at 12:21:35 You didn't Feel it strip?
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Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #86 - 01/02/18 at 12:27:50

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 01/02/18 at 12:21:35:

You didn't Feel it strip?

Like I said, when I put it in originally, it felt a little loose so I took it out again and saw these silver bits on it. I didn't think they were stripped since it didn't even get fully into the threads, there was nearly 0.25"-0.5" of the bolt left out of the head. I thought it was the permatex that got on the threads, but now I know it was the threads from below. Considering it looked like threads on the outside, I am assuming it was an old helicoil anyways, which I think explains why I can't get any grip on it now at all.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End? Reply #87 - 01/02/18 at 12:36:59 It's a real lousy feeling when you're tightening one up and it stops getting tighter. Bummer, dude.
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Steph

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #88 - 01/02/18 at 14:46:24

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 01/02/18 at 12:36:59:

It's a real lousy feeling when you're tightening one up and it stops getting tighter. Bummer, dude.

It's incredibly depressing to be honest. So I just need to know if my idea is even possible. If I applied a gasket maker to the bolt and then forced it down with the chrome shield, would that A. Solve the issue and B. Be removable?

If not, I just need to know what I need to re-order. I am guessing the head gasket is not reusable at this point (Goodbye $35), probably the same for the cylinder gasket ($8-$10). I would buy the 5 sealing washers ($10) for sure, they're too cheap not to at this point. I would probably also buy a tube of Threebond 1211($25-$30), just to ensure that everything is right this time. And I would likely buy a new M6X130 bolt ($2), just to be safe. And maybe buy one of the helicoils (And other parts? I'm a little unsure on what you mean) from Dave?

Then I just take everything apart again (Sigh), remove the cylinder and bring it to someone with a press to get the coil installed. Total parts = $80, plus the labor of getting a helicoil added in, which shouldn't take someone with a drill press more than 20 minutes. Then just put everything back together and hopefully never open up the top end ever again Tongue

.

Does that sound about right?

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Dave

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Re: Knocking/Clacking - Lower End?
Reply #89 - 01/03/18 at 05:34:02

The Heli Coil is not pressed in. First the existing threads are drilled out with a 1/4" diameter drill. Then a special tap is used to cut new threads in the aluminum, then a tool is used to thread the insert in place. The insert is supposed to lock itself into the hole - I use a very small amount of threadlocker just to be sure.

Since the engine has run so little - the gaskets may not be stuck to anything and you might get away with using them again if they are not damaged in any way. If the rubber sealing washers were new.....I would certainly use them again.

If you find somebody local that can install the heli-coil - I can sell you one of the 18mm long inserts to use.

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