SuzukiSavage.com - VOA on Rotella T4

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VOA on Rotella T4 - Oil discussion
08/11/17 at 00:42:10

http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html

Looks like they subbed in some extra Boron, but all the rest seems pretty much same same as Triple Protection @ 1,000 PPM ZDDP used to be.

I believe the ZDDP bump table in Tech Section stays the same ..... we increased it back when ZDDP dropped from 1,100 to 1,000 PPM a while ago, and those numbers still look to be good today as well.

There is a debate about the carbide wear pads that "may have been" added to the late model Savage's rocker arms that MIGHT be in your engine that mebbe you might not need all of the booster table addition ZDDP amounts.

HOWEVER,

1) Do ya really know what style of rockers are actually really in your engine? We sure don't as the wear pads were an unevenly done addition to production parts AND certainly have never penetrated the replacement parts warehouses rocker stocks 100% as of today.

2) Intentionally transferring all the wear to your cam lobe tips by using super hard carbide wear pads on the rockers means the lobe tips simply get shorter that much faster. HAVING ENOUGH ZDDP slows down this wear factor on your cam lobe tips.

3) ZDDP works against cam chain wear out as well, and that is a perennial thing we also watch out for here on the list.

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« Last Edit: 08/13/17 at 12:07:32 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #1 - 08/11/17 at 01:37:19 IIRC, the suggested ZDDP bump is one ounce/gallon?
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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12673 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #2 - 08/11/17 at 01:42:05 We have a table in the tech section that allows you to park it on any desired ZDDP PPM level you choose, but yes, the 1 oz per gallon jug is a nominal amount.
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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12673 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #3 - 08/11/17 at 01:43:24 BTW, Justin, are you coming to MM's farm? Hope so, anyway, as I have never met you face to face yet.
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #4 - 08/11/17 at 01:45:15 I haven't been able to ride in over a month. I'm not even driving right now.
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Dave

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Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!!
Reply #5 - 08/11/17 at 03:00:16

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/11/17 at 00:42:10:

1) Do ya really know what style of rockers are actually really in your engine? We sure don't as the wear pads were an unevenly done addition to production parts AND certainly have never penetrated the replacement parts warehouses rocker stocks 100% as of today.

2) Intentionally transferring all the wear to your cam lobe tips by using super hard carbide wear pads on the rockers means the lobe tips simply get shorter that much faster. HAVING ENOUGH ZDDP slows down this wear factor on your cam lobe tips.

I am not sure how accurate those two statements are:

1) Looking at the online parts list the "old" 1 piece intake and exhaust rocker arms were used up until the 2004 model year. The old intake rocker is part number 12840-07F00 and the old exhaust rocker is part number 12850-07F00. In the 2005 parts list - both the intake and exhaust show the new part numbers......12840-24B10 for the intake and 12850-24B10 for the exhaust. Currently the online parts lists show that the new rockers can be interchanged into the older bikes - however the part has not been "superceded" - so if you order the old part numbers you will get the 1 piece rockers. If you are replacing rockers you should order the newer 2 piece rockers, and you can mix and match - the exhaust rocker tend to wear faster and if the intake is still good you can reuse it. (And Oldfeller is correct that we don't know exactly when Suzuki stopped using the older style in the production bikes....my 2007 has the newer style from the factory).

2) I don't believe that having a different material on the rocker will "absolutely" cause more wear to occur on the cam lobe...and we are only assuming that the brazed on pad is harder (all I know for sure is that it is different and seems to be more durable). Up to this point no one has provided evidence of a damaged or worn out rockers or cam after Suzuki switched to the newer style rocker. The 2 piece rockers have been in use for 12 years, and yet we have not seen any damage yet.

So.....my suggestion would be that if you are rebuilding your engine and you want to make the engine as durable as possible - order the newer style rockers and sell your old ones on eBay.

Youzguyz has proven that the early style rockers can go 150,000 miles and more - provided that you use a good oil with enough ZDDP.....which is the subject of this thread.

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stewmills Serious Thumper Offline Imagination is more important than knowledge Posts: 2641 Auburn, AL Gender:	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #6 - 08/11/17 at 06:28:20 I won't know the effect, but this week I changed my oil and used T4 with 1oz ZDDP as usual. Compared to the old T6 and T, the T4 smells and looks the same, and tastes the same too Hopefully we get a break Saturday from this two weeks of rain so I can ride some.
Back to top	« Last Edit: 08/11/17 at 07:53:58 by stewmills » 2008 \| 152/52.5–Air Mix 3/4 \| Rotella T4 \| Seat Lift w/Sheepskin \| Speedo Rattle \| Rear Pulley Shim \| 140/90-15 Rear \| Kaw Front Pulley \| Relocated Rear Signals FREEDOM ISN'T FREE! IP Logged

justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #7 - 08/11/17 at 06:42:12 Compared to the old T6 and T, the T4 smells and looks the same, and testes the same too . We don't Know if it really does have the same balls yet.
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stewmills Serious Thumper Offline Imagination is more important than knowledge Posts: 2641 Auburn, AL Gender:	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #8 - 08/11/17 at 07:54:50 justin_o_guy2 wrote on 08/11/17 at 06:42:12: Compared to the old T6 and T, the T4 smells and looks the same, and testes the same too . We don't Know if it really does have the same balls yet. Corrected. Although I like to think my bike has big balls, that was not the intended message
Back to top	2008 \| 152/52.5–Air Mix 3/4 \| Rotella T4 \| Seat Lift w/Sheepskin \| Speedo Rattle \| Rear Pulley Shim \| 140/90-15 Rear \| Kaw Front Pulley \| Relocated Rear Signals FREEDOM ISN'T FREE! IP Logged

stewmills Serious Thumper Offline Imagination is more important than knowledge Posts: 2641 Auburn, AL Gender:	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #9 - 08/11/17 at 12:26:30 justin_o_guy2 wrote on 08/11/17 at 01:45:15: I haven't been able to ride in over a month. I'm not even driving right now. Is this why? It is in Texas!?!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URq3LWGiylU
Back to top	2008 \| 152/52.5–Air Mix 3/4 \| Rotella T4 \| Seat Lift w/Sheepskin \| Speedo Rattle \| Rear Pulley Shim \| 140/90-15 Rear \| Kaw Front Pulley \| Relocated Rear Signals FREEDOM ISN'T FREE! IP Logged

Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!!
Reply #10 - 08/11/17 at 18:54:11

Dave gives us deeper/better info on the newer rocker part numbers, and yep, you should order the new rocker part numbers if you need a set of rockers to go with a new cam.

Hard wear pads on rockers have been used before (Porsche did this early on) and the net effect is that the relatively softer part in the set wears relatively "faster".

Since everything remains smooth longer the wear rate on the pair is much less than the roughed up wear rate on a set of torn up rockers that has already started the chain of destruction. Once rapid wear begins and is tallied, the tips of the cams have much less mass & area to them to wear away compared to the flat mass of the now harder rocker pads.

With the pads staying smoother much longer, I think the pad/cam lobe set will last a lot longer (with good ZDDP levels being present, even longer yet).

Cam chain wear on the pins and bushings is a fact, and ZDDP does help with this wear. Cam chains wear out much faster than rocker/cam lobes .....

I guess the biggest reason to keep your ZDDP level on up there is that the entire engine was designed (and tested) to run that way, and dropping ZDDP to low levels may affect many things.

However (and forever) it is your bike, so you do what you want to do with it.

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« Last Edit: 08/13/17 at 13:28:55 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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piedmontbuckeye Senior Member Offline Go Bucks! Posts: 496 Easley, SC Gender:	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!! Reply #11 - 08/13/17 at 07:30:29 What oil is currently recommended for the new LS650's by Suzuki factory, and what are its properties as relating to the discussion of this thread?
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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!!
Reply #12 - 08/13/17 at 11:36:21

High ZDDP SF oil was recommended in 1986-2002 when my bike was new. SF oil was still recommended in 2005 as well. Issue with Suzuki's oil recommendation is that the high ZDDP SF grade oil hasn't been available for years.

Rotella was the closest available oil, one that has been recommended and used by multiple bike and car groups since then.

Has Suzuki "teched" themselves out of all the wear issues with the new wear pads?. Yes, perhaps relative to the rocker/cam interface itself, but No, not really because the cam chain wear out issue is still untouched and that cam chain issue is still a faster acting death than any other issue out there.

And yes, you can change the tensioner and replace the chain when it wears out, but having this happen in approximately 30,000 miles still says Suzuki hasn't addressed all the life limiting oil related wear out issues.

To answer your question requires an owners manual from a post 2010 bike that is KNOWN to have the rocker pads on the cam rockers.

And you are hoping that Suzuki changed their oil recommendation? If so, why should we pay attention to that new recommendation since Suzuki went nearly 20 years recommending a high ZDDP oil that you couldn't ever buy?

And Suzuki now bottles and sells a "Suzuki oil" at the stealership that is KNOWN not to be good for the Savage engine? And if you went there today and asked at the counter they would recommend their house brand of wrong stuff as "factory recommended"?

Roll Eyes

..... here you go, pay the man and go see if the recommendation changed any .....

https://www.google.com/search?q=2017+suzuki+boulevard+s40+owners+manual+pdf&o...

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Re: VOA on Rotella T4 is here !!!!
Reply #13 - 08/14/17 at 04:10:33

Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 08/13/17 at 11:36:21:

And Suzuki now bottles and sells a "Suzuki oil" at the stealership that is KNOWN not to be good for the Savage engine? And if you went there today and asked at the counter they would recommend their house brand of wrong stuff as "factory recommended"?

The 2002 that I bought used needed the cam and rocker replaced. I asked him what oil he was using, and he responded "Whatever the dealer sold me ".

NOTE: Some of the damage may be from starting and running the bike on the sidestand for a warmup......and from running it on the sidestand in the winter to charge the battery/keep the fuel fresh.

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Papa Bear Senior Member Offline Posts: 476 Canada ... near the Motor City Gender:	Re: VOA on Rotella T4 - Oil discussion Reply #14 - 08/15/17 at 06:16:31 I don't think my bench grinder could scuff up a valve train that bad !
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