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More than one position on the Choke? (Read 256 times)
batman
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #15 - 05/13/17 at 16:46:18
 
Gary_in_NJ wrote on 05/12/17 at 18:53:30:
That's too low of an rpm. High idle should be around 2,000 and warm idle should be 1,400 to 1,500 rpm. Any lower and the oil pressure isn't high enough to provide adequate flow and to the cams.

Gary ,pressure when starting isn't the problem,If the rpm is 950 pressure is  OK, the real problem is flow,and there is not enough flow to the bearings and parts due to the oil being cold and thick ,until the oil reaches proper running temperature ,this is why most wear occurs at  starting ,not do to a lack of pressure. rev the engine when cold and you increase pressure but actually reduces flow ,a 2000 rpm idle will do the same,it will cause more friction with less lubrication .
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« Last Edit: 05/13/17 at 21:45:08 by batman »  

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HAPPYDAN
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #16 - 05/14/17 at 07:40:12
 
If no one has diddled with the jets, muffler, or air cleaner, it's just like the others say - temperature dependent. Some days, it stays on 1/2 choke. That big air cooled single is really affected by ambient temperature.
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batman
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #17 - 05/14/17 at 16:22:28
 
the choke is for starting, if you have to have the choke on to drive the bike you need to rejet the carb!
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Dave
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #18 - 05/15/17 at 07:13:28
 
batman wrote on 05/13/17 at 16:46:18:
Gary_in_NJ wrote on 05/12/17 at 18:53:30:
That's too low of an rpm. High idle should be around 2,000 and warm idle should be 1,400 to 1,500 rpm. Any lower and the oil pressure isn't high enough to provide adequate flow and to the cams.

Gary ,pressure when starting isn't the problem,If the rpm is 950 pressure is  OK, the real problem is flow,and there is not enough flow to the bearings and parts due to the oil being cold and thick ,until the oil reaches proper running temperature ,this is why most wear occurs at  starting ,not do to a lack of pressure. rev the engine when cold and you increase pressure but actually reduces flow ,a 2000 rpm idle will do the same,it will cause more friction with less lubrication .


950 rpm is not OK......even when warm - the forum recommended minimum is 1,000 rpm....1,100 is even better.  The oil pump just doesn't provide enough pressure or flow at that rpm to properly lubricate the cam bearing.  The Savage engine has a small brass orifice at the top of the engine case on the right side....very near the speedometer drive at the back of the oil passage case into the top of the engine case - and this orifice restricts the oil flow to the upper end during running speeds to prevent too much oil from getting to the top of the engine.  At speeds below 1,000 rpm the pressure/flow just isn't high enough to get any of the oil to the top of the engine.....as least not enough to keep the cam bearings lubricated.  It is imperative you keep the idle speed up above 1,000 rpm for the cam bearings to survive.

One of the reasons that I believe the most wear occurs at start up - is that when you shut the engine down the engine and oil was hot, and the hot, thin oil easily runs/drips off all the internal parts.  Then when you start the engine the next time (hours, days, weeks later) - the bearings, piston and cam have a very thin layer of oil to provide the lubrication until the oil pressure/flow can get to the bearings, and also begin to be thrown around inside the crankcase to oil the piston/cylinder.  Cold, thick oil can make it take longer for the bearings to get proper oil flow and accelerate the wear during "cold starts"...especially when temperatures drop really low.  There are some "pre-lubers" that can be installed to pump oil through the engine prior to starting - most folks never bother with that technology as modern engines can go several hundred thousand miles being being worn out.
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batman
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #19 - 05/15/17 at 09:17:09
 
Dave , I didn't mean to say that 950 rpm was OK,and I agree 1000/1100 is proper idle speed, I meant to say that 950 rpm would provide enough pressure at idle  ,but there is no oil that will provide proper flow at (cold) startup . If you have a minimal pressure to circulate the oil in the motor (about 10 psi per 1000 rpm ) flow is the most important factor ,higher flow increases the thickness of the oil film between the parts reducing wear and carrying away heat .this is why a 10w40 oil being thinner ,flows better than a 20w50 oil ,and allows the motor to run cooler even in the hottest weather.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #20 - 05/15/17 at 18:37:06
 

The SAE designation for multi-grade oils includes two viscosity grades; for example, 10W-30 designates a common multi-grade oil. The first number '10W' is the viscosity of the oil at cold temperature and the second number is the viscosity at 100 °C (212 °F).
Motor oil - Wikipedia
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #21 - 05/15/17 at 18:48:58
 
Dave wrote on 05/15/17 at 07:13:28:
batman wrote on 05/13/17 at 16:46:18:
Gary_in_NJ wrote on 05/12/17 at 18:53:30:
That's too low of an rpm. High idle should be around 2,000 and warm idle should be 1,400 to 1,500 rpm. Any lower and the oil pressure isn't high enough to provide adequate flow and to the cams.

Gary ,pressure when starting isn't the problem,If the rpm is 950 pressure is  OK, the real problem is flow,and there is not enough flow to the bearings and parts due to the oil being cold and thick ,until the oil reaches proper running temperature ,this is why most wear occurs at  starting ,not do to a lack of pressure. rev the engine when cold and you increase pressure but actually reduces flow ,a 2000 rpm idle will do the same,it will cause more friction with less lubrication .


950 rpm is not OK......even when warm - the forum recommended minimum is 1,000 rpm....1,100 is even better.  The oil pump just doesn't provide enough pressure or flow at that rpm to properly lubricate the cam bearing.  The Savage engine has a small brass orifice at the top of the engine case on the right side....very near the speedometer drive at the back of the oil passage case into the top of the engine case - and this orifice restricts the oil flow to the upper end during running speeds to prevent too much oil from getting to the top of the engine.  At speeds below 1,000 rpm the pressure/flow just isn't high enough to get any of the oil to the top of the engine.....as least not enough to keep the cam bearings lubricated.  It is imperative you keep the idle speed up above 1,000 rpm for the cam bearings to survive.

One of the reasons that I believe the most wear occurs at start up - is that when you shut the engine down the engine and oil was hot, and the hot, thin oil easily runs/drips off all the internal parts.  Then when you start the engine the next time (hours, days, weeks later) - the bearings, piston and cam have a very thin layer of oil to provide the lubrication until the oil pressure/flow can get to the bearings, and also begin to be thrown around inside the crankcase to oil the piston/cylinder.  Cold, thick oil can make it take longer for the bearings to get proper oil flow and accelerate the wear during "cold starts"...especially when temperatures drop really low.  There are some "pre-lubers" that can be installed to pump oil through the engine prior to starting - most folks never bother with that technology as modern engines can go several hundred thousand miles being being worn out.


I recall some years ago, a major engine oil manufacturer screwed-up their formula, as a result engines were destroyed because there was no oil film left on critical parts after shut off.
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #22 - 05/15/17 at 18:57:41
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 05/13/17 at 06:48:49:
The choke, which, technically Isn't a choke..
And the completely different ways each engine needs it, there just isn't any Rule for how to use it.
And IF it's not perfect in its ways, won't Stay, whatever,, it's not a big deal. A clothes pin would probably solve the problem. Just get it to run and warm up and ride.

'The choke isn't a choke'  a motorcycle enthusiast told my brother that the choke was kind of like another carb built into the carb. Smiley
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #23 - 05/18/17 at 00:40:44
 
ohiomoto wrote on 05/13/17 at 05:27:27:
Are you saying you ride with the choke out?  How long to keep it out?


I confess, that for years I HAVE ridden with the choke out full for several minutes... because when it was in first position, it would get "sucked" back in (that's what I recall). Currently, I'm riding my girlfriend's Savage - mine has been inoperable and sitting for about 8 months, and I'm just getting around to having the time to learn how to fix it. Her's doesn't have the "suck in" problem (let the dirty jokes fly). When I get my bike back up and running *fingers crossed*, I will have to see if the choke is still behaiving that way.

Thanks for the other info about the plastic part being worn and not hoding out the choke, and the other good information!
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US Navy (99-03). Novice, self-taught mechanic. 2003 Savage with 44k miles. 2015 S-40 with 5k miles.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: More than one position on the Choke?
Reply #24 - 05/18/17 at 07:29:15
 
I know I've met people who I wanted to choke from more than one position.
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