SuzukiSavage.com - Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)

Mekh

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Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
04/13/17 at 14:39:50

After disassembly/reassembly engine is "suddenly" difficult to turn over.

I had solved my issue with the clutch lever etc., and prepared for starting the engine, but after having engaged the starter a bit the engine got sort-of stuck.

Tried a bit of this and that, and ended up with Google, where I found this post:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;n...

Can anyone point me to s schematic/drawing that shows what this is about and where what should go?

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verslagen1

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #1 - 04/13/17 at 15:10:45

Let's review the symptoms.
1. it won't spin with the starter.
2. it won't spin with a wrench on the crank.

Now for the probable causes.
1. could be the decomp, but since it doesn't turn with a wrench either, that's not it.
2. hydraulic lock, did you fill the cylinder with oil? shouldn't need more than a teaspoon for lubrication.
3. did you use the penny method for torquing the clutch?

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youzguyz

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #2 - 04/13/17 at 15:44:37

Mekh wrote on 04/13/17 at 14:39:50:

After disassembly/reassembly engine is "suddenly" difficult to turn over.

I had solved my issue with the clutch lever etc., and prepared for starting the engine, but after having engaged the starter a bit the engine got sort-of stuck.

Tried a bit of this and that, and ended up with Google, where I found this post:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;n...

Can anyone point me to s schematic/drawing that shows what this is about and where what should go?

If you had the stator cover off, this could happen:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1479321667/22#22

Is that what you are asking about?

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Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.

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batman

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #3 - 04/13/17 at 17:09:50

If you pull the sparkplug ,and the motor turns over normally ,it,s not the washer on the wrong starter gear.It may be your decomp not set right,or you need to check basics,spark ,fuel, compression(did you spray a little oil in the cylinder?)If the battery isn't fully charged and the voltage drops below 10v when you engage the starter ,you won't have any spark.

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Mekh

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #4 - 04/14/17 at 01:30:43

I can see that my explanation was rather lacking last night

Before I re-disassembled and re-re-assembled my clutch I could turn the engine over manually with a breaker bar just fine with the spark plug out. The decompression lever should be properly adjusted as per the manual.

Last night I put my clutch back together using sort-of the "penny method" and all was fine, for a short while.
I did not however try to turn the engine over after re-assembling the clutch as I saw no need to at the time. In glorious hindsight I probably should have.

So, I assembled everything needed to try and get the engine started including putting motor oil on the engine, (but not in the cylinder as I oiled that well during assembly).

When I got to the point where I had checked that the decompression lever did what it should, I let the starter try and get the engine running but it got sort-of seized after very little rotation.
I then took out the spark-plug and tried the same, with the same result.
Then I tried rotating the engine manully, and I can rotate it but it takes too much force to do it and it feels like there is a massive friction in the engine (tar instead of motor oil might result in something feeling like this), so I knew something was wrong.
I checked various things, ending up on google and found the thread about some washer on the torque limiter gear that can be misplaced, but could not from that thread understand what washer and where.

A link to a thread with a photo showing it made it clear what I should check, and I intend to check that later today... after having finished some chores regarding gutters filled with leaves, replacing some rubber tiles with concrete ditto aaand some more even less interesting stuff.
Photo from when I disassembled that side of the engine. I can't spot a washer there. Will be interesting to see where it is, if there is one at all...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gidj3vfwvutfyy/2016-12-14%2020.40.01.jpg?dl=0

I appreciate all the help so far

If you spot anything in my description above that leads to something I should check also, please do let me know,

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youzguyz

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #5 - 04/14/17 at 04:48:18

Always look at the parts drawings from one of the OEM sites as well:

http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32fb4f8700232d0b3d91b/starter-clutch

This shows that there should be washers on both sides of the limiter assembly (2).
The bad thing about this drawing is that it makes you think the limiter engages the starter gear (due to the relative position of the limiter and idle gears). The photo shows that the limiter engages the flywheel, which is correct.

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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
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Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.

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Mekh

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #6 - 04/14/17 at 05:54:28

Hi

There are no washer(s) on my model, which is a 1993-1994.

So it seems I have assembled it correct, but it also means that I have no idea why it's not turning easily. Guess I will have to take the clutch cover back off and check everything. Sad

Found this, which looks like mine (1988):
http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32ebdf8700232d0b3d6d6/starter-clutch

Photos from my engine:

PS.
Figured out why I could not link directly to photos in my Dropbox, so in case others here uses Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3dlnnzhly5pjns/2017-04-14%2014.26.31_small.jpg?dl=0

Manually change "dl=0" at the end of the link to either "dl=1" or "raw=1", and it works

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youzguyz Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 2538 San Antonio, Texas Gender:	Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually) Reply #7 - 04/14/17 at 06:17:48 Before opening the clutch side again, I would pull off the idler gear that meshes with the flywheel and see if the engine turns more easily manually with the breaker bar/wrench. Might as well eliminate that side of the engine first. And, I would leave it off until the issue is resolved!
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Mekh Full Member Offline Suzuki Savage Rocks! Posts: 128 Denmark Gender:	Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually) Reply #8 - 04/14/17 at 06:20:52 Yes, I have tried taking off those small gears and turning the engine over, but no difference. I intend to let the left cover off until I have figured out what is going on. Will report back when I have had the right side back off gain.
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Mekh

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #9 - 04/14/17 at 07:00:18

The cam chain is tight... super-tight... WAY too tight, even without the tensioner installed. Video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3mkxwy31dkwxhr2/2017-04-14%2013.46.19.mp4?dl=0

I understand nothing right now... Shocked

After engine assembly the engine has been turned over several times manually, both to test everything rotated as it should, but also when I adjusted the valves, decompression valve and so on and everything worked fine at all times.

"Only" thing I have done since then is fixing the clutch (other thread: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1491743506).

I am completely stomped here... and don't feel like messing with anything until I have some idea what may be going on... In other words: Help!

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually) Reply #10 - 04/14/17 at 07:09:44 I can't watch the video. A picture of your chain with and without you squeezing it would help.
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Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18095 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually) Reply #11 - 04/14/17 at 07:14:36 I can watch the video......and that just isn't right. There should be far more slack than what the video shows.
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Mekh

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #12 - 04/14/17 at 07:21:02

Whereas there should normally be slack on the left side of the chain where the tensioner presses on the chain there is slack on the right side of the chain.

So... what can cause this and why is it happening now, when it has rotated just fine so far? I really don't like where this is going Sad

Not touching the chain:

Pressing left side of chain:

Pressing right side of chain:

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youzguyz

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #13 - 04/14/17 at 07:24:07

I've been looking through your pictures trying to see when it went weird.

You look ok here.
2017-04-13 16.41.13.jpg

And maybe all the way to here:
2017-04-13 17.35.53.jpg

Any chance that something fell down between the chain and the bottom gear?
What were you using between the drive gear and the clutch when you tightened stuff up?

Never mind.. Just saw the pictures of the slack on the right side

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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
2000 - Green (Mad Hamish)
Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.

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Mekh

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #14 - 04/14/17 at 07:27:06

youzguyz wrote on 04/14/17 at 07:24:07:
...snip...
Any chance that something fell down between the chain and the bottom gear?
What were you using between the drive gear and the clutch when you tightened stuff up?

Will go check for parts that should not be there, but for locking the gears I used a rather large piece of bright red plastic, so no chance that could have been lost in there. I also recall being annoyed when trying to remove it again after tightening.

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