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Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually) (Read 537 times)
Mekh
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #30 - 04/14/17 at 08:59:50
 
verslagen1 wrote on 04/14/17 at 08:28:51:
That's true dave.
If it was turning before the clutch work, most likely it is something to do with the clutch work.
Common sense says undo the last thing you did and check.


But... I dit not have the chain tensioner off while taking off the clutch, so the chain should have been nice and tight the whole time. Still don't understand how this happened.
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justin_o_guy2
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What happened?

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #31 - 04/14/17 at 09:16:45
 
Which way did you spin the motor?
The crankshaft and wheels all rotate the same way.
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Mekh
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #32 - 04/14/17 at 10:06:05
 
The flywheel was rotated counter-clockwise,  as the wheels when driving forward.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #33 - 04/14/17 at 10:16:09
 
Then the only way I can envision slack in the chain on the front side is as mentioned above, cam lobe in the
Let's Close the valve
zone. The valve spring drove the cam .
The chain isn't telling me anything.

What did you Feel as it didn't wanna rotate?
Grinding?
What did you hear?
What did you take off that is still on?
Starter?
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #34 - 04/16/17 at 18:45:20
 
I'm thinking it goes back to his statement that he "used a large piece of plastic"to lock the gears when torqueing the clutch, and had a real bad time getting out ,It sounds to me like the plastic didn't hold the gears but may have got crushed and slipped between the gears,what this movement could have done to the cam chain and gears isn't clear,in my mind but I think it bares looking into.Is it possible the primary drive gear slid across the  crushed plastic one tooth and through the cam timing off?
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Mekh
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #35 - 04/17/17 at 03:51:53
 
I have now removed all relevant bolts from the valve cover, and would like a hint on how to slide out the cover. The engine is in the frame.

Which side and/or forward do you usually slide/tilt it out towards?
EDIT: NVM, I got it out easy when I took it out left side.


batman wrote on 04/16/17 at 18:45:20:
I'm thinking it goes back to his statement that he "used a large piece of plastic"to lock the gears when torqueing the clutch, and had a real bad time getting out ,It sounds to me like the plastic didn't hold the gears but may have got crushed and slipped between the gears,what this movement could have done to the cam chain and gears isn't clear,in my mind but I think it bares looking into.Is it possible the primary drive gear slid across the  crushed plastic one tooth and through the cam timing off?


I am 100% positive that the plastic piece held the gears.
It is a method I usually use and have originally learned from my father who usually employs a similar method. You just have to make sure the material is strong enough to not be squeezed out from between the teeth when you apply force on it, which I can see was not the case.

One of the benefits of using a softer material like plastic as opposed to (soft) metal is that it is less prone to be dropped between the time you put it in place and till you apply some real force on it, as you can "set it" in place by applying a little temporary force/torque on it.

Also... I did not have "a real hard time" getting it out, but I did have to wriggle and pry it a bit of course Smiley

The setup I used at the time (This one is staged):
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« Last Edit: 04/17/17 at 05:13:54 by Mekh »  
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Mekh
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #36 - 04/17/17 at 05:53:44
 
Back to the last step you did and check that...

I had a stupid brain fart when I re-assembled the clutch it seems. The small gear that sits on the backside of the clutch basket was oriented wrong... Gears towards the case, rather than towards the clutch basket. Nothing seems to broken/damaged because of this, so I will now re-assemble it all.

However, I'm unsure whether the timing is right. Can I slide the chain over the bottom or top cam chain gear without disassembling anything further?
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Dave
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #37 - 04/17/17 at 06:28:55
 
Mekh wrote on 04/17/17 at 05:53:44:
However, I'm unsure whether the timing is right. Can I slide the chain over the bottom or top cam chain gear without disassembling anything further?


I don't believe so.  There is a part of the case that prevents this on the bottom - and I am not sure how you would slide the chain over a tooth on top.  When I need to move a tooth - I take the cam out and let the upper sprocket drop down a bit.....then move the chain on the sprocket.
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #38 - 04/17/17 at 06:31:04
 
Mekh wrote on 04/17/17 at 05:53:44:
Back to the last step you did and check that...

I had a stupid brain fart when I re-assembled the clutch it seems. The small gear that sits on the backside of the clutch basket was oriented wrong... Gears towards the case, rather than towards the clutch basket. Nothing seems to broken/damaged because of this, so I will now re-assemble it all.

However, I'm unsure whether the timing is right. Can I slide the chain over the bottom or top cam chain gear without disassembling anything further?


If you have the head cover off, you can see the end of the cam.  If you can see that, you can tell if the timing is OK.
Your picture 2016-11-05 19.10.01.jpg shows what it should look like at TDC.
If it is not right, you will probably need to take the cam gear, cam, chain apart and fiddle.  I don't think it can be done from the bottom.

The BIG question is: Does it still feel like it is binding now that you flipped the oil pump drive gear over?

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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #39 - 04/17/17 at 06:32:36
 
P.S.  Did you make SURE that the oil drive gear pin was in place????
Item #19 here: http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32ea1f8700232d0b3d67b/clutch
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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
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Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.
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Mekh
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #40 - 04/17/17 at 06:44:48
 
Oil drive gear pin: If it's the pin that holds the small gear on the clutch basket in place, then YES, I have triple-checked that. Smiley


Timing was off, and I ended up loosening the camshaft gear wheel in order to get the timing right again.

So far everything "feels right" after having rotated stuff with a preliminary assembly.
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Mekh
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #41 - 04/17/17 at 11:28:03
 
The bike is currently cooling off a bit after it's initial 10 minute break-in.

It started after no more than 2-3 turns of the engine and it sounds daasm good so far Smiley

Using original exhaust in order to be able to best possible hear if anything is not sounding right. but so far it's the cleanest sound I have ever heard from this engine.  Cheesy

Now I will change the oil, and oil filter and prepare for the 30 minute break-in. I have 2 fans blowing on the cylinder, which I suppose should suffice. Anyone have any feedback on this?
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #42 - 04/17/17 at 11:51:24
 
Yep.  Don't brake the engine in without riding it.  The piston/cylinder needs the pressure of the acceleration and deceleration to get the rings seated properly.
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #43 - 04/17/17 at 12:00:13
 
Mekh wrote on 04/17/17 at 11:28:03:
The bike is currently cooling off a bit after it's initial 10 minute break-in.

It started after no more than 2-3 turns of the engine and it sounds daasm good so far Smiley

Using original exhaust in order to be able to best possible hear if anything is not sounding right. but so far it's the cleanest sound I have ever heard from this engine.  Cheesy

Now I will change the oil, and oil filter and prepare for the 30 minute break-in. I have 2 fans blowing on the cylinder, which I suppose should suffice. Anyone have any feedback on this?


SOOOOO happy that you got it going and it sounds good.  

Not the way I did my break in after doing valves and rings, but everyone has their own method.
I did 600 miles on Rotella T3 with a little extra ZDDP.  Never going WOT, never leaving the RPMs the same for an exended period of time.
Doing accels and decels almost all the time.
Then changed the oil to Rotella T6 and continued the gentle treatment for another 1000 miles.
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2002 - Silver (Thumper)
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Most motorcycle problems are caused by the nut between the seat and the handlebars. Make sure yours isn't too tight or too loose.
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Mekh
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Re: Engine not turning (Hard to turn manually)
Reply #44 - 04/17/17 at 12:13:29
 
This is the break-in method I have read smaller variations of for new cam shaft and rocker arms. Whether it's for motorcycles or cars this seems to be the most commonly referred method.
the main purpose of this break-in is to make the needed surface hardening of the cam-shaft and rocker arm surfaces, while ensuring oil pressure at all times. In case of this bike, by keeping an eye on the oil glass. while breaking it in, I keep the rpm's going up and down between 2000-3000 rpm's by ear.

Besides that we have a VERY wet spring here in Denmark (as usual), and would definitely prefer to be able make the break-in here inside, as I try to keep the bike out of the rain as much as possible.

I am re-using the piston rings, so they should not really need break-in.
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