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Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One? (Read 135 times)
WebsterMark
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #15 - 10/29/16 at 11:18:21
 
Do you think solutions are automatically scalable upwards?
Why, since Obamacare failed, do you believe a larger, more comprehensive program, would succeed?
Is there a population wide social program operated by the US government that's successful?
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HovisPresley
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #16 - 10/29/16 at 11:54:09
 
"Do you think solutions are automatically scalable upwards?"

No. Why?

Europe has twice the population of the USA; many more language 'barriers' and different currencies, yet still it works.

Is the most powerful nation on Earth unable to coordinate a system because it is too big?

All that is being questioned, Mark, is your notion that the size of the USA would prohibit a healthcare system that would put it on par with, as Bot said, the majority of the civilized nations on Earth.
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WebsterMark
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #17 - 10/29/16 at 13:19:05
 
I think I said the complexity of the US in addition to size,
Why did Obamacare fail?
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #18 - 10/29/16 at 14:30:26
 
WebsterMark wrote on 10/29/16 at 13:19:05:
I think I said the complexity of the US in addition to size,
Why did Obamacare fail?


We're not that complex,.. to Europeans we're practically retarded... Grin

Obamacare hasn't failed,... but, it's not a National health...
National health is a single payer government program...
It works because there is no middleman sucking up a third of the profits... And there is no "opt-out's" "opt-in's" for HMO's...
HMO's are gone...
Everyone contributes, everyone's covered, for everything... always...

Life expectancy, quality of life, cost per person,.. every measure of health,.. improves for everyone... and no one goes bankrupt paying bills...
The latter helps other elements of the economy immeasurably...

I've used British healthcare, and it is excellent...
Brit's would revolt before letting it go...
Perhaps the most cherished benefit of government in most countries that have it...
It works...

Think about it... Profit is at least 50% for most any business...
You get a service... HMO's want to make 50%... hospitals want to make 50%,.. Doctors want to make 50%...  This isn't pay, it's profit for shareholders...
With a National Health... you are the shareholder, and your "profit" is the healthcare...
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #19 - 10/29/16 at 14:44:27
 
Serowbot wrote on 10/29/16 at 14:30:26:
WebsterMark wrote on 10/29/16 at 13:19:05:
I think I said the complexity of the US in addition to size,
Why did Obamacare fail?


We're not that complex,.. to Europeans we're practically retarded... Grin

Obamacare hasn't failed,... but, it's not a National health...
National health is a single payer government program...
It works because there is no middleman sucking up a third of the profits... And there is no "opt-out's" "opt-in's" for HMO's...
HMO's are gone...
Everyone contributes, everyone's covered, for everything... always...

Life expectancy, quality of life, cost per person,.. every measure of health,.. improves for everyone... and no one goes bankrupt paying bills...
The latter helps other elements of the economy immeasurably...

I've used British healthcare, and it is excellent...
Brit's would revolt before letting it go...
Perhaps the most cherished benefit of government in most countries that have it...
It works...

Think about it... Profit is at least 50% for most any business...
You get a service... HMO's want to make 50%... hospitals want to make 50%,.. Doctors want to make 50%...  This isn't pay, it's profit for shareholders...
With a National Health... you are the shareholder, and your "profit" is the healthcare...


why lie......????

Why couldn't Obama tell the truth about cost, keeping you care, etc?
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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HovisPresley
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #20 - 10/29/16 at 16:11:27
 
"I think I said the complexity of the US in addition to size.."
.......................................................................

Maybe organizing anything in the 50-ish countries of Europe, with their many many different native languages, and many different currencies is much less complex than organizing, say, a similar sized country with 50-ish different states, a nation with a common language and currency.
Once again you are right, Mark. I totally agree.
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #21 - 10/29/16 at 16:51:51
 
HovisPresley wrote on 10/29/16 at 16:11:27:
"I think I said the complexity of the US in addition to size.."
.......................................................................

Maybe organizing anything in the 50-ish countries of Europe, with their many many different native languages, and many different currencies is much less complex than organizing, say, a similar sized country with 50-ish different states, a nation with a common language and currency.
Once again you are right, Mark. I totally agree.  


How does your system work?
Who pats for it?
How do you find out about coverage?
Choices of doctors, etc?
Medical records?

Can you give us a summary?

Thanks!
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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WebsterMark
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #22 - 10/29/16 at 18:10:44
 

Think about it... Profit is at least 50% for most any business...
You get a service... HMO's want to make 50%... hospitals want to make 50%,.. Doctors want to make 50%...  This isn't pay, it's profit for shareholders...
With a National Health... you are the shareholder, and your "profit" is the healthcare...

50? Are you insane? You think the typical profit is 50%? You should probably stop,talking now.
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WebsterMark
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #23 - 10/30/16 at 04:51:28
 
HovisPresley wrote on 10/29/16 at 11:54:09:
"Do you think solutions are automatically scalable upwards?"

No. Why?

Europe has twice the population of the USA; many more language 'barriers' and different currencies, yet still it works.

Is the most powerful nation on Earth unable to coordinate a system because it is too big?

All that is being questioned, Mark, is your notion that the size of the USA would prohibit a healthcare system that would put it on par with, as Bot said, the majority of the civilized nations on Earth.


Ask the average European a few questions about tne US and they are likely to know quite a bit. When I meet my European colleagues and they ask where I'm from, I say St. Louis, on the Mississippi, right smack dab in the middle of the country etc.... and they already know most of that. Ask the average American about a city in Europe of corresponding size and you're just as likely to get a blank stare.

Now, the condescending European will retort with the usual dumb, backward, ugly American comments, but is that really the case? How about this instead: you HAVE to know about me, I don't have to know about you.

The point is, the US is the 800lb gorilla in the room. We are the King. The world revolves around us, not the other way around.

Does Europe " still work" as you say? Questionable at best. Much of your defense is provided by the US. The only reason you can afford to lay back and enjoy your craddle to grave social welfare programs is due to that and
the fact you've been busy replacing the children you can't be bothered to have with immigrants who don't have your atheist viewpoints. You've opened your gates and invited the Trojan Horse  in and you even knew what was inside it!

The world needs a US population that fights to survive and that includes something as simple as handling our own insurance issues. It's not that darn hard to get a job and work. We don't need an emasculated population that hands control of our lives over to the State.
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #24 - 10/30/16 at 07:27:43
 
raydawg wrote on 10/29/16 at 16:51:51:
HovisPresley wrote on 10/29/16 at 16:11:27:
"I think I said the complexity of the US in addition to size.."
.......................................................................

Maybe organizing anything in the 50-ish countries of Europe, with their many many different native languages, and many different currencies is much less complex than organizing, say, a similar sized country with 50-ish different states, a nation with a common language and currency.
Once again you are right, Mark. I totally agree.  


How does your system work?
Who pays for it?
How do you find out about coverage?
Choices of doctors, etc?
Medical records?

Can you give us a summary?

Thanks!



Gee, why do I feel I am standing in a line, to get an answer, that should be so readily available in a well designed system  Roll Eyes

Never mind Hov,  I think you inadvertently answered it.......
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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HovisPresley
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #25 - 10/30/16 at 09:28:32
 
"Gee, why do I feel I am standing in a line, to get an answer, that should be so readily available in a well designed system  Roll Eyes

Never mind Hov,  I think you inadvertently answered it....... "
................................................................................
.

I believe the reason that you feel that way is two-fold:

1. It's not a well designed system, but it's not too complex to achieve.

2. The UK is 7 hours ahead of you in PDT, so when you ask me something at 00:51 (here) it is just that I don't feel like explaining something to you (which is easily 'Googled') when it's 1am.

Think globally and don't misinterpret a 'lack of response' for what it is or isn't... or I might remind you of the prejudice/pigeon-hole conversation.

That you think I 'inadvertently answered' your request already....just saves me a lot of typing.
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #26 - 10/30/16 at 10:00:11
 
HovisPresley wrote on 10/30/16 at 09:28:32:
"Gee, why do I feel I am standing in a line, to get an answer, that should be so readily available in a well designed system  Roll Eyes

Never mind Hov,  I think you inadvertently answered it....... "
................................................................................
.

I believe the reason that you feel that way is two-fold:

1. It's not a well designed system, but it's not too complex to achieve.

2. The UK is 7 hours ahead of you in PDT, so when you ask me something at 00:51 (here) it is just that I don't feel like explaining something to you (which is easily 'Googled') when it's 1am.

Think globally and don't misinterpret a 'lack of response' for what it is or isn't... or I might remind you of the prejudice/pigeon-hole conversation.

That you think I 'inadvertently answered' your request already....just saves me a lot of typing.


Funny, I thought we both spoke english  Grin

Anyway, I saw you were still active, even posted to this thread after I asked you the question.
If you couple that with the pigeon, where you said you've read all 3000 plus of my post to generate an understanding of my POV's.....

Well, I thought I had a groupie, in you.....

My bad  Grin

BTW, I still have no idea how you answered my question, inadvertently, or otherwise, now that you chimed, Big Bennie   Shocked
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“The biggest big business in America is not steel, automobiles, or television. It is the manufacture, refinement and distribution of anxiety.”—Eric Sevareid (1964)
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #27 - 10/30/16 at 10:11:34
 
 (This thread has morfed into Health Care)

Take a look at the UK’s system.
98.8%,  Paid for by,  Taxes.
  (Yet, the ‘fairy Dust  Sprinklers’, say it is, ‘free’)
Who, pays the Taxes ????
It Does,  “… not including admission to hospital…”
“ … There have been issues about cross-border payments …”
“ …many people complained about long waiting times and underfunding. Satisfaction with the Health Service fell in 2015…”
“ …About 10% of GDP is spent on health…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service
Considering, the GNP of the UK, that 10%, is   HUDGE !!!!!!

Now look at  Canada.
“…Most government funding (94%) comes from the provincial level…”
“…Most family doctors receive a fee per visit….”
“ …hospitals have been forced to cut costs or reduce services….”
“…Half of private health expenditure comes from private insurance and the remaining half is supplied by out-of-pocket payments….”
“…Healthcare spending in Canada (in 1997 dollars) has increased each year between 1975 and 2009, from $39.7 billion to $137.3 billion, or per capita spending from $1,715 to $4089. In 2013 the total reached $211 billion, averaging $5,988 per person….”
“…The government attempts to ensure the quality of care…”
   (Key word is, ‘ATTEMPTS”)
“…The result is that there is a wide variance in what is covered across the country by the public health system, particularly in more controversial areas, such as midwifery or autism treatments….”
“ …More than 60 percent of prescription medications are paid for privately…”
“ …though communities in rural, remote and northern regions, and some specialties, may still experience a shortage…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

And of course, what both those Countries Spend in Defense, is a  drop in the bucket. Compared to 'another', Country, who  protects their BUTT, so they don't have to.  They can spend that money, on  the 'one payer system,.

So, ya have a, ‘one payer’  system.
Need a  aspirin for a headache ?
  Free,  (If you don’t pay taxes)
Broke your arm falling off the ladder ?
  Free,  (If you don’t pay taxes)
In a  CAR  Accident, ?
  FREE, TO Fix you up, (If you don’t pay Taxes)
BUT, you  WILL   get a  BILL, from the  Hospital !
You need a  Liver or Kidney?  Have Cancer?
      Tough Sh&#,   you  DIE !!!!!!

Everything is  IN   Place  Here (in the USA),  NOW.
ALL that needs to be done is.
It  Take AWAY the  MONOPOLY, the Insurance companies have.
(Thank you Democrats)
And OPEN  up, the ability to purchase a  Insurance Plan from ANYWHERE in the US.
NOT be,  Forced,  to purchase from the States   MONOPOLY !

Yes, Health care in the USA, is  Broke.
It  does  NOT, cost,  $12.00 for a  aspirin, if delivered by a nurse.
But that is what they charge, (+/-)

Here is a  REAL  Life !!!!!!
$69.95 for a 30 sec,  prick the finger, a drop of blood, put on a test strip, the machine that reads it, cost $500.00, (For  INR test- Blood Thinner).   THAT, is what is universally Charged in MINN.
The wife needed that, ’test each week’, after leaving the Hospital.
Local Clinic, went up to the counter and told them, “I would Pay  IN  CASH  each time, how much”?
GEE, it was $22.50.  
WHAT?   $22.50  vs   $69.95 ????????
You Know the Clinic was making money on the $22.50.
So  HOW   MUCH, MORE, by charging the Insurance Companies  $69.95 ???

And I could go on and on.
Point is, Yes, the HC in the USA is  Broke.
And it is Broke, because the Democrats, are in Bed with the Hospitals, and Insurance  Companies.

And,   ‘Bamma  Care’, is  NOT  Even  CLOSE, to the answer !!!!!!!!
In fact,  it is  MUCH  WORSE, than what was before !!!!

And you actually,  ‘Trust’, the guberment, to, ‘fix’ it ???
With some sort of,  guberment funded  one pay system.
Oh Gosh,  No one in the guberment, will stuff their pockets, and hire their buddy to stuff his pockets.
Oh No, just can’t happen.

Canada, the average salary of a  Doctor is,
“… The gross average salary was $328,000….”
AND:
“…Recent reports indicate that Canada may be heading toward an excess of doctors…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada
What would the  guberment, pay a  Doctor here, if they took control ???

But Hey, it’s  FREE.    (If you don’t PAY   Taxes)

The ‘FIX’ is the, Trees in the Forrest.
Open up enrollment for health plans to ALL States.
Stop  the Monopoly and Extortion,
and  ALLOW,  Competition!

COMPETITION.  
Which the Democrats have NOT  allowed, because they get a kick back, for allowing the  MONOPOLY of the system their is now. (Think it is called a  ‘donation’, to a  ‘foundation’)

Competition:  
You can drive a  NEW  car off the Lot, for $15,000.00  OR $1,500.00,00 +
You can have a cell phone for $10.00 a month or $100.00 + a month.
You can buy a  NEW, Shotgun for $300.00 or  $3,000.00 +.
You can buy a pair of shoes for, $5.00 or $50.00+
You can buy 2 Pair of Glasses and Lenses, and  Exam, for $69.95,
  or pay, $200.00 +   JUST  for the exam.
+ + + + + + +

Just like most Any Country.
  But you can ONLY buy H.I. in a  VERY   Narrow   Range.  
And in some cases, NO   Range  at ALL !

Competition !










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Ben Franklin once said: "If you give up a freedom, for the sake of security, you will have neither".
Which is More TRUE, today, than yesterday.('06, S-40, Stock) well, mostly .
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HovisPresley
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #28 - 10/30/16 at 11:21:09
 
Mark, there was a gorilla who was called 'king'.
The only things to 'revolve around' it were planes around the tower in Manhattan. King Kong is fiction.

But if there was an 800lb gorilla in the room, all it needs is for a child to enter that same room....
And yes, I know where Cincinnati is, but from the show "WKRP in Cincinnati".
It's probably more to do with cultural references (Film,TV, music) rather than anything political, that Europeans link US cities/locations with their geography.
We are bikers; probably the most famous 'biker' film was 'Easy Rider'... a road-movie .....

Quote Mark: "Ask the average American about a city in Europe of corresponding size and you're just as likely to get a blank stare. "

Or even ask a US presidential candidate about Aleppo  Grin

In a nutshell, Mark, you claimed that the 'complex' nature and size of the US would prevent a 'Nation Health Service-type' system from working.
I gave an example of a working system that involves many nations, languages and currencies, ie. more complex.

It is a system that I use (unfortunately) very often, at the moment.
I didn't appreciate your comments about the 'late' Mrs Hovis (RIP), and your (admin-requested) refusal to apologise to me, but instead was greeted with threats of physical violence.
Therefore I'll not encourage you further, when it comes to Health Care.


PS. Believe me, the rest of the world doesn't "HAVE to know" where St. Louis is.

PPS. @Ray
"even posted to this thread after I asked you the question."

Ummmm....no I didn't.





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WebsterMark
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Re: Is it possible to feel Sorry for all but One?
Reply #29 - 10/30/16 at 11:48:37
 
PS. Believe me, the rest of the world doesn't "HAVE to know" where St. Louis is.

......but they do. That's the point.

King Kong, WKRP, Easy Rider....  along with hundreds of other US shows and movies. Again, that's my point.

From you we get Monty Python and Downton Abbey.
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