SuzukiSavage.com - Who did he like.....

WebsterMark

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Re: Who did he like.....
Reply #15 - 09/16/16 at 03:58:09

You guys toss the word "lie" around like Sew foolishly tosses the words racist or Hitler.

A lie is purposely knowing with certainty what you are relaying is false in order for personal gain.

That wasn't the case. Did they make mistakes in their analysis? Yep. Did their ideology get in the way? Yep.

If that's your definition of what a lie is, then 90% of what we say is a lie. Powell didn't lie to anyone and neither did Bush.

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #16 - 09/16/16 at 04:03:38 I think Bush lied,,
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raydawg Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 11551 pacific northwest Gender:	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #17 - 09/16/16 at 05:56:59 It was about control, the USA, it always is. And lie is no excuse for the wrong descion. A general is schooled in making the right choices based in their own fact findings.... As I said, others knew the truth, yet? Hey I was fooled too, by T I am just a grunt and not entrusted with a whole bunch of responsibility
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WebsterMark Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 13212 Gender:	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #18 - 09/16/16 at 06:01:44 justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/16/16 at 04:03:38: I think Bush lied,, So the President of the United States knew for sure the intel was wrong. He knew with certainty the conclusions were wrong because the facts were not facts at all, but he lied and said they were. Really? He lied?
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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Who did he like.....
Reply #19 - 09/16/16 at 06:05:26

So, the General is supposed to go, establish the facts, and determine the course of action?
And what of The CIA? Is he supposed to disregard the intelligence briefings and just somehow ascertain the truth independently?
When the Agenda is to attack, and people above the cia TELL THEM that they will gather
Intelligence that will support an invasion, and they do that and give it to people who Would Not WANT to invade, but, because of the lies, are left with no other rational choice, they get on board.
I say Bush was well on board with creating
Intelligence to justify the invasion.
Suggest you spend Time reading what Powell said after it became apparent that he had been duped into supporting a war.

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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Who did he like.....
Reply #20 - 09/16/16 at 08:21:03

https://consortiumnews.com/2013/02/04/colin-powell-conned-or-con-man/

If read from the position of Not knowing if Powell is guilty, concluding he is will be difficult. Given information from sources whose Jobs it was to establish the facts, TOLD These Are the Facts, what would you do? He did try to use Curveball.
All in all, I think it's a situation where there isn't enough hard evidence to know that Powell knowingly, willfully pushed us into war. I do think Bush and Cheney are guilty, along with the named CIA figures who prepared the reports.

https://consortiumnews.com/2013/02/04/colin-powell-conned-or-con-man/

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Serowbot

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OK.... so what's the
speed of dark?

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Re: Who did he like.....
Reply #21 - 09/16/16 at 08:28:58

WebsterMark wrote on 09/16/16 at 06:01:44:

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 09/16/16 at 04:03:38:

I think Bush lied,,

So the President of the United States knew for sure the intel was wrong. He knew with certainty the conclusions were wrong because the facts were not facts at all, but he lied and said they were. Really? He lied?

Yes... he knew...

“In making the case for war, the Administration repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent. As a result, the American people were led to believe that the threat from Iraq was much greater than actually existed. ... There is no question we all relied on flawed intelligence. But, there is a fundamental difference between relying on incorrect intelligence and deliberately painting a picture to the American people that you know is not fully accurate.”

— Statements and implications by the President and Secretary of State suggesting that Iraq and al-Qa’ida had a partnership, or that Iraq had provided al-Qa’ida with weapons training, were not substantiated by the intelligence.

— Statements by the President and the Vice President indicating that Saddam Hussein was prepared to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups for attacks against the United States were contradicted by available intelligence information.

— Statements by President Bush and Vice President Cheney regarding the postwar situation in Iraq, in terms of the political, security, and economic, did not reflect the concerns and uncertainties expressed in the intelligence products.

— Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq’s chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community’s uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing.

— The Secretary of Defense’s statement that the Iraqi government operated underground WMD facilities that were not vulnerable to conventional airstrikes because they were underground and deeply buried was not substantiated by available intelligence information.

— The Intelligence Community did not confirm that Muhammad Atta met an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague in 2001 as the Vice President repeatedly claimed.

- Senate Intelligence Committee

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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh

...

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #22 - 09/16/16 at 09:52:21 Bush told the people who were Supposed to gather information to get information that would justify the war. Why do you think I have stated over and over that Bush should be in jail? I'm NOT saying that it was or wasn't His idea. Read the article I linked.
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WebsterMark

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Re: Who did he like.....
Reply #23 - 09/16/16 at 10:22:42

Using those standards Sew, did Obama lie when he said if you like your plan, you can keep your plan?

Did Hilary lie when she said she never sent classified emails? (well, yes, that's a no brainer, forget I said that...)

The point is, both of what you and Jog show as evidence of willful lying is far more likely to be wishful thinking clouding judgment.

Seriously, what's the difference between Bush believing selected statements from intelligence reports and directing subrogates to give him specific information which tended to support his predisposed belief from Obama ignoring pleas that Obamacare would fail to accomplish it's goal, would drive up cost and that young healthy people would not sign up in the numbers he repeatedly said they would.

Did Obama lie or was he blinded by his desire for success?

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Who did he like.....
Reply #24 - 09/16/16 at 11:32:04

Why is it about Obama now?
Of COURSE Obama lied.
Hillary lied.
Bush lied.
You started out with Powell.
And THAT is not so easy to discern.
Bush, please read carefully,
Sent people out to obtain information that would be something he could hide behind in order to invade Iraq.
He didn't ask for objective truth.
He wanted intelligence that he could point to and pretend that we were in danger.
Again, read the linked article.

e point is, both of what you and Jog show as evidence of willful lying is far more likely to be wishful thinking clouding judgment.

Seems to me that you're unable to read what is clearly stated and accept it for what it is.

I am OBVIOUSLY intellectually dishonest and a right wing warmonger. I'm not able to see it , no matter how obvious it is, if a bub is wrong,, and by wrong, I Don't mean
Ooopsies, I made a mistake.
I mean Criminally Wrong.

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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.

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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 6170 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #25 - 09/16/16 at 12:11:43 good thing trump doesn't lie "its true"
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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Who did he like.....
Reply #26 - 09/16/16 at 12:22:47

Who says trump doesn't lie?

Web said

eriously, what's the difference between Bush believing selected statements from intelligence reports and directing subrogates to give him specific information which tended to support his predisposed belief

Interesting mix of alleged facts.

believing selected statements from intelligence reports

He didn't Believe them, he knew they were tainted, he just wanted to Use them to
Manufacture Consent.

Ohh, the BayBees! They threw the BayBees on the floor,

Total lie. Our media, used, again, to create an uproar and make people angry.

and directing subrogates to give him specific information which tended to support his predisposed belief

He didn't have a Belief.
He NEEDED the intelligence community to provide information that he could use to justify doing what he wanted to do.

And just exactly how is it okay to direct the intelligence community to dig up information that would justify an action? The intelligence community is supposed to find out what IS HAPPENING, and then we respond.
If someone sponsors a scientist and asks him to study a drug and determine whether or not it's safe and effective, BUT, tells them the outcome they want, do you think that scientist would be objective or, in order to keep the boss happy, skew the results to make sure the boss is happy?
And when the intelligence community benefits from war, then what are the odds that they can't find information that would justify the action the boss wants?
Enhanced Interrogation anyone?
How many times would they have to waterboard me before I started making stuff up? Zero,, just tell me they are able and willing to do it, unless I Confess. You're probably a lot tougher..

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WebsterMark Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 13212 Gender:	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #27 - 09/16/16 at 13:52:49 Jog, I don't say you're lying about your false 9/11 conspiracy crap, I just say you're wrong. Shoild Sew and I call you a liar?
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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #28 - 09/16/16 at 14:02:28 No more so than I should call you liars. You're both wrong. Bush, Obama, Hillary, they lied, willfully, intentionally. Powell? Hard to say..
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pg Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 5273 In Transit	Re: Who did he like..... Reply #29 - 09/16/16 at 14:23:18 Is this thread about who knew supposedly knew what? I'm going to say everyone last one of them had solid intelligence. Best regards,
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