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Bike will not start (Read 137 times)
aj108
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Bike will not start
06/28/16 at 11:03:45
 
Hi All-

I want to give as much info as possible, but please skip down to #### if you'd prefer to skip directly to my current problem.

Year: 2006
Miles: 10.5k
Mods: Luggage rack, passenger back rest, saddle bags

I bought this Suzuki S40 with all of the mods in 2014. I started it and rode it every day for one year- rain, snow, or shine- in the city as my daily. Changed the oil a twice (1.5k mile intervals), filled the tires with air, and that's it. I brought it into the shop to get the front brake changed in Summer 2015 and they told me that my forks were leaking. I bought a very cheap plastic tool that claimed to be able to fix this fork problem but I never got around to using it.

Fast forward to November 2015. I went to China for two weeks and the bike sat without being started this entire time. Again, I was starting it and riding it every day, never a problem, right up until the day of my flight. It rained here in the USA for that entire 2 weeks. When I came back, the bike would not start. The battery was strong (do not have volt output), the starter was spinning, but not much else was happening. It seemed obvious that water got into something.

I drained the gas tank in case there was water, tried starting it with fresh gas (failure), and gave up working on it for the rest of the Winter 2015.

###########################################

Here is where I'm at right now-

Battery- strong, putting out 12.6+V fully charged
Starter- brushes are intact, starter motor spins like a devil on the car battery (and also on the S40 battery). bonus question: my dad, an aircraft mechanic in Vietnam many years ago, was surprised that he could not pull the starter rod in and out. He is wondering if this is a starter/generator that stays connected to the gears.
Spark- I bought a brand new plug, and tested it for a bright blue spark. All good.

The bike will NOT start on a tank of fresh gas. Starter is spinning. I am assuming the plug is sparking because I tested it outside the bike for a bright blue spark (it is also brand new).

So, with the seat off, and the gas tank off, I tried spraying Ether into the carb by disconnecting the large black hose from the air filter. Sprayed it in there, three count, following instructions from a similar topic on this forum. Choke closed, no throttle. Starter spinning, battery full (12.6+v) and giving a good spark outside of the cylinder, but it could not start.

I pulled the spark plug out of the cylinder and tried starting- Ether and gasoline are both blowing out of the spark plug hole. So, I drained the carb bowl of all gasoline/ether mixture, put the plug back in, and tried again with ether from behind the carb. No luck.

Finally, on my Dad's suggestion, I started spraying Ether directly into the cylinder (through the spark plug hole). Four seconds of ether, put the plug back in, and tried starting it. Again, I keep testing for a bright blue spark on the plug.

Current status: there is ether in the cylinder, the spark plug is giving a bright blue spark on a full battery OUTSIDE of the cylinder. But, there is no combustion happening when the spark plug is attached. Full disclosure- the day before, we were pouring gasoline down the spark plug hole. Could this gasoline be drowning the plug? All I am smelling on the plug is ether, no gasoline.

I am a total noob, please forgive my terminology and anything I left out of this post! I plan to check the compression as soon as I can buy a tool to do so- is it possible that compression is the problem? Shouldn't the plug be igniting the ether anyway?

THANK YOU!

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hotprops
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #1 - 06/28/16 at 11:43:57
 
you are geting a good spark with the plug in the cylinder? or is it runing free of compression? not much load on battery with no compression.so i would say it is the battery. i just ruined one and got new one today agm for 40 dollars delivered in 3 days google" chrome battery ytx14ahl-bs" look around and mouse over to the backpage arrow and a 10% off pop will show up good luck  use your finger as a compression test for now. keep spark wire away from hand. get a second spark plug to test spark while other is screwed into cylinder. also put volt meter on while doing this .you will see low volts
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #2 - 06/28/16 at 11:51:38
 
There are lots of threads on this topic and the tech section has links to many of them.  As you know three things are needed for combusion:

Fuel (and air)
Spark
Compression

You have been methodical and tested for spark by observing the plug and you tested the fuel component by squirting ether into the carb.  You didn't test for compression but it is highly unlikely that anything could have happened to the bike to ruin the compression while it was parked for a few months.  I would go back through the first two items yet again, I suspect the battery is weak.  

Since the trouble began after the bike was sitting for some time it might be battery or fuel related as you have suggested but possibly in a different way. How old is the battery and was it completely discharged when you first tried to get the bike going again?  Have you tried jumping the bike with a known good battery?  A battery can show decent voltage and still be weak, it may not be able to spin the starter motor, run the lights and supply a strong spark at the same time.

Check the oil level and see if it is higher than when you last checked it.  A bad petcock/float could lead to flooding and fuel can get into the engine and airbox/filter.  A spark plug that is wet with fuel isn't going to spark well.  You might want to read up on the petcock in the tech section of this forum.

Verslagen has some trouble shooting links in the tech section, http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1403194022/0#2
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #3 - 06/28/16 at 11:57:57
 
If you don't have compression it's Gonna spin over fast. Listen to the exhaust, if the decompression is hung up, it's not getting compression.
To test for spark, leave the plug in the head, pull the wire, stick a plug in the wire, ground it, hit start.

If it's spinning over the same with the plug in the head as out, it's got no compression.
If it's not the decompression,then pull a valve cover and see if the valves are moving.

The cam can be ruined by idling on the sidestand.
Four seconds of ether is more than I use on my backhoe.

I'd be pulling the air filter, squirt ether.
If The air filter got wet, could be a problem.
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #4 - 06/28/16 at 17:54:54
 
UPDATE

Hey all, I had some time after work today and got it started!

At my Dad's suggestion, I unplugged and replugged the solenoid decompressor. Not sure if this did it.

Second, blew some ether into the back of the carb, tried with choke open, no good.

Third, blew some ether right into the spark plug hole, tried with choke open, no good.

Fourth, blew some ether right into the spark plug hole, tried with choke fully closed, ba ba ba ba ba BRUMMMM dadadadada! Got it!

Now she starts with the choke closed and a little throttle!

Thanks everybody for the suggestions and thanks to all the people on this forum who provide so much info!
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #5 - 06/28/16 at 18:16:59
 
I think I will quit offering advice, what I think is wrong never pans out to be the problem in these sorts of posts.  So, the big question is, what was wrong with it?

Anyway, glad it runs for you now.  
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #6 - 06/28/16 at 18:36:51
 
If the bike sits for an extended time it's not a bad idea to remove the sparkplug and pour a s m a l l amount of oil into the cyl..or use fogging oil, to help seal the rings (aid compression) be cause the oil has drained off the walls of the cyl.This could also prevent scoring the walls.
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« Last Edit: 06/29/16 at 03:14:10 by batman »  

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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #7 - 06/28/16 at 19:07:34
 
The things I said about the cranking spin rate, with versus without the spark plug are more important than you seem to get. The lack of compression can be important.

Just how long Did it sit ?

Oil does leave the cylinder.
Ether isn't a good lubricant.
We've seen a motor sit, get started and die in a few months.
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #8 - 06/30/16 at 08:02:19
 
Ok Justin, you have my attention! I don't understand your first post, the terms you use (its gonna spin over fast.. do you mean the motor? the starter?). You told me to listen to the exhaust, but at the time, the exhaust wasn't making any noise because there was no explosion happening in the cylinder. Only the starter spinning.

I did test the spark this way, got a nice bright blue, and it was a brand new plug (just testing anyway).

Still not sure what you mean by spinning over (the engine starting? because only the starter was spinning, no starts).

I am sending your post to my Dad who understands the mechanical terminology better.
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #9 - 06/30/16 at 08:18:39
 
Maybe the smart folks will chime in, but I think what he's trying to say is when you spin the starter WITH A PLUG IN THE HOLE do you feel/hear exhaust pressure coming out of the exhaust. If no, then that could be a big issue as you have no compression. Or, it could be lesser of an issue if the decompression valve that opens to let the bike start easier is stuck open.  

The comment about testing for spark with another secondary spark plug in the hole is to test the spark condition under normal load.  If you are getting a spark with the hole open but not when it is plugged with another spark plug, then that means you could have a battery issue because there isn't enough juice to create a good spark under normal starting load.

Other folks, please correct me if I have gone astray anywhere  Roll Eyes
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #10 - 06/30/16 at 08:31:57
 
Alright thanks for the explanation! I asked my Dad and he explained a lot to me and we kind of did this when we were working together.

My Dad was listening to the piston with the plug in and out, and it was more labored when the plug was in but not as good as it should have been (he still suspects it could have been a stuck decomp valve).

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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #11 - 07/02/16 at 11:49:12
 
One More Update

After working on this bike for 6 months, and after finally getting the engine started, I saw what I believe is the air intake (a double-barrel rubber trough that runs down behind the air filter). Inside of this was a pool of water with a swamp-like green slime covering, probably mixture of gasoline oil and whatever.

I spent this morning sucking it out with some plastic tubing.. I do wonder if that is a clue toward figuring out why she wasn't starting in the first place. Next time, the first place I check will be down that air intake?
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #12 - 07/02/16 at 13:05:33
 
The exhaust will be pushing air even if it's not running. If it's pushing And pulling, then you have a valve open when it had Otta be shut.
Spinning over is the motor turning,not running.
We had already determined that you weren't getting it to hit, to fire, to run... it's been
Just Spinning Over..

Then the Difference between Plug in and Plug out
Spin rate gives a hint as to whether or not something is holding an exhaust valve open.
Sounds like dad is awake and aware..

Check the air filter. Heck, leave it out, get it running, then worry about that.
I would squirt some oil in the cylinder and hit the starter, plug out. Let it sit a few minutes before hitting the starter. The closer to vertical you can get the cylinder the better.
Hit the starter a few times, till it stops pumping a mist of oil out. Don't wanna foul the plug.
You don't have to put the tank on to get it started.

It sat for months, oil dripped down off the cylinder wall, you've sprayed Ether in, further removing oil. Just shoot ether at the intake.
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Re: Bike will not start
Reply #13 - 07/03/16 at 18:59:03
 
My bike has never started without the first notch of choke when cold. After that, no problem. Summer cranking takes one notch--winter takes full pull. Every bike has its quirks. Maybe yours is figured out. Just ride and enjoy.
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