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Cam chain tensioner revisited (Read 2423 times)
Armen
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #30 - 05/19/16 at 02:43:54
 
As to the question of the spring tension alone holding the tensioner blade:
What happens is that as the motor is running, the chain tries to become a circle on the unloaded side. The front part is drawn tight by the crank pulling against the valve spring tension. The back of the chain is thrown off the crank sprocket and tries (successfully) to push back the spring tensioner. The pawl is to stop this from happening.
My issue is that the pawl keeps the tensioner locked at a place which might be correct tension with a cold motor, but probably too tight when the motor heats up and the cylinder grows.
If you have a bike with a center stand, get the bike on the stand, put it in gear and rev it up. You'll see the top (loaded) part of the chain tight and the bottom flailing.
-Armen
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Garry
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #31 - 05/19/16 at 02:51:12
 
Yes good point. Hadn't thought of that. So it's really the fact that the tensioner over tightens the chain due to expansion and contraction of the height of the motor with temperature change. If that's correct and it seems logical, the only way to make the system effective would be to make the tensioner manual and  adjust it at each service? This would prevent the cyclical temperature changes from allowing the chain being regularly over tightened. Would reducing the strength of the spring in the tensioner help?
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Dave
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #32 - 05/19/16 at 03:39:31
 
batman wrote on 05/18/16 at 23:13:17:
Dave gave us a picture of a Porsche tensioner,that restricts movement using hydraulic pressure which on first attempt failed,I'm waiting for my tensioner spring to fail ,but I'm a patient man. and thinking about the Porsche boxer engine a 180 degree flat six with duel over head cams their need for heavy duty tensioner on a chain that might be 8 feet long might be over kill for our bikes.


The chains on the Porsche engine (1 left, 1 right) are a similar length to our chain.  The chain goes from the intermediate shaft to the overhead cam.....the only big difference is that the chain is driving a longer cam and works 3 cylinders instead of just one.  The Porsche cam chain is a double roller chain rather than the silent chain used on the Savage.

I was looking at images of tensioners to see how others are made, and I found a tensioner for Honda cars, and it commented on the tensioner issue they have.  Evidently the problem is that when the valve is closing - the spring pressure pushes on the cam lobe and drives the cam forward slightly, and this can allow the valve to close too fast and the valve hits hits the seat too hard.  I don't know that this occurs on the Savage, as the Honda car most likely doesn't use rocker arms and it probably has an intake and exhaust cam....so the design is much different.

I hope you do have success, and that it works out fine.  I am not yet convinced that the removal of the pawl is a good thing, and that the forum members should follow your method.  Only time will tell if you have found something more durable than what the stock tensioner provides.    
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #33 - 05/19/16 at 03:57:05
 
Garry wrote on 05/19/16 at 02:51:12:
Yes good point. Hadn't thought of that. So it's really the fact that the tensioner over tightens the chain due to expansion and contraction of the height of the motor with temperature change. If that's correct and it seems logical, the only way to make the system effective would be to make the tensioner manual and  adjust it at each service? This would prevent the cyclical temperature changes from allowing the chain being regularly over tightened. Would reducing the strength of the spring in the tensioner help?


I will be making that change in a week or so.  I will take the side cover off, measure the extension of the plunger, then take the internal spring out and extend the plunger to match the measurement that I got before I took the plunger spring out.  The pawl will keep the plunger from moving back in.....the plunger will not have any spring to move it out.

Another option would be to make a way to lock the pawl in place, and just leave the plunger spring in the tensioner.  That way you could unlock the pawl and allow the spring to establish a new setting by turning the engine over a bit....then lock the pawl to prevent any additional movement.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #34 - 05/19/16 at 04:22:49
 
So you will effectively have a manual camchain adjuster. With no spring to move it out you will need to do that manually from time to time.  Your second idea about leaving the spring in place and working out some method for locking the plunger in place is probably safer. This is what a lot of early Jap bikes used and it was very effective
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Armen
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #35 - 05/19/16 at 07:09:49
 
Yup. Pretty much what I had in mind. Just have to pop off the clutch cover and the tensioner.
-Armen
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #36 - 05/19/16 at 09:22:16
 
dave ,you said on the Honda car the cam was advanced and closed to early,but as our chains wear our cam timing as compared to the crank is more and more retarded, if so the exhaust valves and inlet valves may be seating at their original timing,on my bike
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #37 - 05/19/16 at 09:56:16
 
batman wrote on 05/19/16 at 09:22:16:
dave ,you said on the Honda car the cam was advanced and closed to early,but as our chains wear our cam timing as compared to the crank is more and more retarded, if so the exhaust valves may be seating at their normal time.


The point was not the cam being advance.....the point is that without a pawl or something to keep the valve spring from driving the cam forward.......the cam can move and create slack in the front section of chain and tension in the back portion. On the Honda car it is the exhaust cam that is nearest the backside of the cam chain and the tensioner, and the when it advances the small section of the chain between the 2 cams becomes loose.....this apparently is a big problem for the Honda during start up when there is no oil pressure in the tensioner.  And it becomes more of a problem for the Honda when bigger cams and stronger valve springs are used, and the ratchet in the stock tensioner can be broken.
http://cms.skunk2.com/id/389/K-Series-Tensioners-The-Solution/


While I realize the movement in the Savage engine is not likely to be an issue at higher rpm that exceeds the ability of the valve spring to accelerate the cam forward - it may be an issue at lower rpm, idle, start up, or when shutting the engine off - when the valve springs have a chance to move the cam faster than the crankshaft is turning the cam.

In checking your other post, it appears you have had the pawl spring out for about 6,000 miles.......you need to get a lot more miles on your bike before it is out of the trial/testing phase.....and proven to be a reliable solution to the tensioner/cam chain issue on the Savage.

   
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #38 - 05/19/16 at 10:14:14
 
What I like is that batman is our guinea pig so to speak. His bravery may yield the best solution.

My thoughts are, as somebody suggested, to put a solid rod inside the spring and remove the pawl. It would need to be just the right length so that the tension is optimal, whatever that is, so that as the engine expands the tension is not too tight. It couldn't be any worse that what the pawl does.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #39 - 05/19/16 at 10:18:51
 
norm92de wrote on 05/19/16 at 10:14:14:
What I like is that batman is our guinea pig so to speak. His bravery may yield the best solution.

My thoughts are, as somebody suggested, to put a solid rod inside the spring and remove the pawl. It would need to be just the right length so that the tension is optimal, whatever that is, so that as the engine expands the tension is not too tight. It couldn't be any worse that what the pawl does.


The solid road isn't really required....you just remove the plunger spring, and then extend the plunger to the length you want....the pawl will hold the plunger wherever you left it.  (If the plunger does happen to move farther out without a spring inside....chances are it need to be adjusted anyhow).

I do hope that Batman has success with his approach - I am just a bit too conservative to take an approach that is not proven.  Having a cam chain break while I am leaned over in sharp curve is not my idea of "Adventure Tourism".
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #40 - 05/19/16 at 10:19:58
 
I'm sorry if I offended anyone with this topic ,I really just threw it out there . I think it works for me and will report back this fall when I open the motor up . I don't need anyone to follow my lead ,I did want to start a conversation about what has always been a pain in our butts. I think we have brought much great info to light . I would like to thank everyone ! Over and out,batman....
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Dave
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #41 - 05/19/16 at 10:23:12
 
I am not offended....anybody else? Huh
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #42 - 05/19/16 at 10:23:18
 
Good point Dave. With the spring removed as long as the plunger stays put, and it should, no problem.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #43 - 05/19/16 at 10:25:40
 
Not me either.

The more we throw this around the better Smiley
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #44 - 05/19/16 at 10:34:58
 
I think it's a grand and potentially Very exciting experiment.
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