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Cam chain tensioner revisited (Read 2423 times)
Art Webb
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #45 - 05/20/16 at 08:34:02
 
I don't think anyone is offended, I think there's a lively intellectual debate going, the VERY healthy kind, and some are quite hopeful while others are sceptical
for one group to remain silent while the other speaks leads to an intellectual echo chamber, where fresh thoughts may be stifled or left uncritically examined
I think this is a great discussion
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norm92de
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #46 - 05/20/16 at 10:29:48
 
Talking about cam chains in general. What do other bikes get out of their cam chains mileage wise.

I have never owned a bike long enough to need to replace a chain. CB77/Yamaha XS650/Suzuki GS650 among others.

What is the consensus?
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #47 - 05/20/16 at 10:46:47
 
We've seen very short lived and a coupla chains went twice the average. I Think a couple gave out around six thousand , and a couple made near thirty,but,  not sure...


Getting around twelve,maybe sooner, time to be listening,for sure, especially if you tend to make fifteen mile trips.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #48 - 05/20/16 at 11:40:09
 
norm92de wrote on 05/20/16 at 10:29:48:
Talking about cam chains in general. What do other bikes get out of their cam chains mileage wise.

I have never owned a bike long enough to need to replace a chain. CB77/Yamaha XS650/Suzuki GS650 among others.

What is the consensus?


I haven't had any problems with the chain on my Savage yet, but from what I read, they go out way too fast.  I've never had to do anything but adjust the cam chain tension on any of my bikes.  I had a XS1100S with almost 100,000 miles on it that didn't get a new chain.

I think the OPs suggestion that the tensioner makes the cam chain too tight is probably correct.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #49 - 05/20/16 at 11:55:31
 
From what I've seen, wear depends on a few things.
Older BMW Airheads had massive flywheels, and double row timing chains. Not unusual on a highway/touring bike to see many tens of thousands of miles on a chain before it gave grief. As time went on, the flywheels got lighter, and in '79 they went to a single row timing chain. On my '79 R65, which has a light flywheel and single row chain, I replaced the timing chain 3 times in 45K miles. Then again, I commuted into Manhattan, and rode it like I stole it.
Certainly revving the nuts off a motor wears out the whirly bits faster Shocked
-Armen
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #50 - 05/20/16 at 11:56:42
 
My aim was not to offend, but when I start a reply with Dave                 dave, dave,....he  or others might not understand that as just my sense of humor. My thought is laughing is better than crying ,I like to tease a bit but this may not be evident  when read on the small screen.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #51 - 05/20/16 at 15:50:20
 
There is a fellow on the Ninja 250 forum that had about 80,000 miles on his bike and it was running strong - but the cam chain had grown longer than the cam chain tensioner system could handle.  Replacing the chain in that bike requires a complete tear down of the engine - as the cam chain is in the middle of the crank and has to slide over the crank to be removed.  It was cheaper and easier for him to just buy a low mileage used engine than try to rebuild his original engine.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #52 - 05/20/16 at 17:05:55
 
Why wouldn't it be possible to simply break the chain and feed in a new one? Surely it is possible to re-rivet a cam chain???
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #53 - 05/21/16 at 07:40:24
 
The 250's being starter bikes for the rice rocket set are pretty common on places like fleabay. Reassembling the new chain and having it as strong as it was would be your problem,and these bikes have redlines nearly twice ours
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #54 - 05/21/16 at 08:34:10
 
norm92de wrote on 05/20/16 at 17:05:55:
Why wouldn't it be possible to simply break the chain and feed in a new one? Surely it is possible to re-rivet a cam chain???


The problem is obvious, the simple solution, as you say, build a chain with a master link. I'm pretty sure that since the problem exists and is obvious but nobody offers the replacement chain in any form other than one piece. I don't really see why not either.
I know what hazards a master link cause, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. The thing is, it's a built in weak spot on an already stressed, CRITICAL area. The liability for the manufacturer could be considerable.
The scene

Long, decreasing radius sweeper, guy, tucking tighter, dropping gears, matching revs, and the cam chain parts, engine causes the rear tire to slide out, he gets hurt,  


Then, figure out how the weight difference in the master link affects the chain, zooming around gears, sliding up and down guides,

And, no, nobody has what it takes to join a chain that is installed. Nobody can access it and pound a peined end rivet in.
If someone can, it's a rare bird. I'm not that bird.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #55 - 05/22/16 at 20:45:25
 
JOG ,I agree I dont think it would be possible to reconnect the chain and be assured it would stay together.(oops) Many seem to think my removing the spring in the paw to be radical,and that the chain tries to go oval on the back side. Let's say it does,but the pressure is spread against the entire guide ,the spring inside is compressed and pushes back harder, does it move yes,but how much. We need superman's x-ray vision for this one.but I do know this, when my bike cools down the paw is not there to stretch the s**t out my chain!
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #56 - 05/22/16 at 20:52:42
 
I'm 100% behind the test. Glad someone is taking that bull by the horns.
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #57 - 05/23/16 at 02:48:13
 
I think the combination would be to remove the pawl, leave the spring, and set up a block to limit the amount the plunger can go back (slack).
I'll try to get that done this week.
If I was really enthusiastic, I'd measure the height of the cylinder at room temperature, then put it in the over at maybe 220F, and measure the stretch, and use that figure to determine how much play the tensioner needs. Or maybe just look up the amount that aluminum grows in that temperature range.
-Armen
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #58 - 05/23/16 at 07:13:08
 
armen,i think your on track,this may be really off the wall,you could use a small hardwood dowel (sealed with epoxy?) inside the spring 1or2mm. shorter than the space behind the plunger. this may sound weird unless you are aware that pound for pound wood is stronger than steel,and the compression strength of hardwood can be as high as 60,000psi.Being wood it couldn't damage any of the metal parts of the tensioner,and would afford protection if the paw were to fail (MacGyer at it again!)
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Re: Cam chain tensioner revisited
Reply #59 - 05/23/16 at 07:15:59
 
Batmen,
I was going to use a length of steel round rod inside the spring. Wood may be stronger, but it doesn't like to be soaked in hot oil. Kinda doubt the steel in compression will have any strength issues  Wink
thanks,
-Armen
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