SuzukiSavage.com - Rotella as fork oil?

Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18099 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #60 - 02/09/16 at 14:58:30 Yep....this thread is getting pretty old. A month has gone by, we are on the 5th page of discussion......and nothing has been done. Time for me to move on to more worthwhile projects....Over and Out!
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Kenny G Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com The Singles Club...LOL Posts: 1754 Robson Ranch, Denton, Texas Gender:	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #61 - 02/09/16 at 15:03:10 Dave, Can we defriend a guy on here like you do on Facebook? Kenny G
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cheapnewb24 Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1373 Virginia Gender:	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #62 - 02/09/16 at 15:10:47 Well, this certainly has me feeling concerned. Everyone's mad at me.
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Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18099 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #63 - 02/09/16 at 15:13:26 cheapnewb24 wrote on 02/09/16 at 15:10:47: Well, this certainly has me feeling concerned. Everyone's mad at me. Probably not mad.....just worn out. This whole Rotella T/fork oil thing should have been resolved in 1 page of discussion over a 2 day period.
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Art Webb

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Re: Rotella as fork oil?
Reply #64 - 02/09/16 at 18:59:38

Cheap, you enjoy hashing things out
you also like arguing with folks, if you don't like what they have to say in reply
a lot of these folks don't share that enthusiasm, and are also trying to keep you from doing things they don't think are very smart
I think I said back on page 1 or two, try it, let us know what happens
I think others said it too, but I could be wrong
Dave and Versy are great guys, and they know their machines
Versy has done work on my bike twice, though not major stuff, for no more than a 'thank you'
They just don't like to argue with someone who just questions everything they say, who has little practical experience
They're both basically saying what I did
try it, tell us how it goes
by now you must realize none of us has tried blending oils, and we have our doubts, but also no real feedback to give
We can't offer advice on things we've never done
so you're the pioneer, do some research
and to add to what Dave and Versy said re the emulators, the company not only has a small market, they also have pretty large R&D costs to recover
If you think you can just whip up a device like that in your garage without a degree in engineering, or even with one, well, be ready to make A LOT of prototypes, which you will then bin when they're no better, and likely worse, than the stock setup
invention is 10% inspiration, 90% perspiration, even if you know what you're doing
put in more sweat, and see how far it takes you

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cheapnewb24 Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1373 Virginia Gender:	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #65 - 02/09/16 at 19:29:38 Thanks, Art. I like your style. I'll take your advice into consideration. I'll keep you posted on my findings.
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gizzo Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiCabbage. It's Savage. Posts: 1318 Australia	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #66 - 02/09/16 at 20:32:02 If you can make a device that works at least as well as gold valve cartridge emulators in a new way (not a knock off) for $50.00 a pop, sign me up. I'd love to do some testing. Good luck. Work hard.
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Dave

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Re: Rotella as fork oil?
Reply #67 - 02/10/16 at 03:02:04

Maybe I shouldn't prolong the agony - but I didn't properly explain the emulator and probably made it seem simpler than it really is. It is not a single check valve....it is actually two.

The small diameter long spring controls a small diameter brass plate (valve) with one or several holes in it. The small holes control the flow of oil on the compression stroke during small movements, and it is adjustable by the size and number of holes. When you hit a big bump the entire brass plate (valve) moves away from the brass body to allow faster movement, and it is adjustable by altering the spring tension by moving the adjusting screw....or installing different rate springs.

However....the is a steel plate on the bottom side of the emulator (check valve) that controls the flow of oil on the rebound stroke. This springs is not really visible when the unit is assembled and photos are taken - this spring is calibrated by Race Tech for you application, and the adjustment is made by altering the fork oil weight.

In the photo below you can see the small brass plate under the longs spring with a single small hole drilled in it, and a few dimples made for drilling additional holes......on some applications you drill as many as 4 holes in this brass plate. On the bottom side you can see the holes machined to allow the oil to flow from the steel check valve on the rebound stroke.

This doesn't mean that you need to spend $ 300 installing the emulators and springs in your forks....chances are the stock forks work as well as you need them to.

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Dave

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Re: Rotella as fork oil?
Reply #68 - 02/10/16 at 03:26:02

cheapnewb24 wrote on 02/09/16 at 19:29:38:

I'll keep you posted on my findings.

Once you get the fork oil changed, install a nylon zip tie on one fork leg above the slider (you can also use a piece of string tied around the fork tube). Then push the zip tie down until it contacts the slider. Then stand the bike up off the kick stand and let the forks drop under the weight of the bike. Then either put the bike back on the sidestand to pull the weight off the forks - or put it on a jack and take the weight off until the forks are fully extended. Then measure the travel the forks moved under the weight of the bike. Then pull the zip tie back down and repeat the process with you geared up and sitting on the bike with your feet on the pegs....don't bounce or make any hard movement - you just want your relaxed weight on the bike....then get off and extend the forks and take a measurement. If the springs are set up perfectly for the bike and your weight - you should have about 10-15mm of sag for the bike alone, and about 35 mm with you on the bike. You need to add spacers or washers to get close to the 35mm sag before you start riding and evaluating your fork performance. Since you weigh 200 pounds without gear....you may need to add some spacers/washer to get the ride height correct and provide proper fork travel. (If half of your fork travel is gone just by sitting on the bike....that doesn't leave much travel when riding).

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Art Webb

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Re: Rotella as fork oil?
Reply #69 - 02/10/16 at 07:22:29

assembling and disassembling forks multiple times
part of that perspiration I was jawin about
Of course, first you gotta do this with the oil Suzuki specced, so it's a fair comparison
Then you gotta redo that procedure with each and every blend your highly active little gray cells come up with, to make fair comparisons
this is gonna be work
It'll keep ya busy though, and you'll be REALLY good at disassembling / reassembling forks Wink

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cheapnewb24

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Re: Rotella as fork oil?
Reply #70 - 02/10/16 at 10:51:54

Dave wrote on 02/10/16 at 03:26:02:

cheapnewb24 wrote on 02/09/16 at 19:29:38:

I'll keep you posted on my findings.

Once you get the fork oil changed, install a nylon zip tie on one fork leg above the slider (you can also use a piece of string tied around the fork tube). Then push the zip tie down until it contacts the slider. Then stand the bike up off the kick stand and let the forks drop under the weight of the bike. Then either put the bike back on the sidestand to pull the weight off the forks - or put it on a jack and take the weight off until the forks are fully extended. Then measure the travel the forks moved under the weight of the bike. Then pull the zip tie back down and repeat the process with you geared up and sitting on the bike with your feet on the pegs....don't bounce or make any hard movement - you just want your relaxed weight on the bike....then get off and extend the forks and take a measurement. If the springs are set up perfectly for the bike and your weight - you should have about 10-15mm of sag for the bike alone, and about 35 mm with you on the bike. You need to add spacers or washers to get close to the 35mm sag before you start riding and evaluating your fork performance. Since you weigh 200 pounds without gear....you may need to add some spacers/washer to get the ride height correct and provide proper fork travel. (If half of your fork travel is gone just by sitting on the bike....that doesn't leave much travel when riding).

Thanks for the info. I will try that. By spacers, you mean adjusting the spring preload with spacers inside the forks behind the fill cap, added in front of the stock steel tube spacer? I take it that ride height has to do with preload rather than oil viscosity? That seems right. Undecided

By the way, where are you getting your numbers?

It seems that the cartridge emulator is not extremely simple. I wonder if it could be, though.

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cheapnewb24

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Re: Rotella as fork oil?
Reply #71 - 02/10/16 at 10:59:51

Art Webb wrote on 02/10/16 at 07:22:29:

assembling and disassembling forks multiple times
part of that perspiration I was jawin about
Of course, first you gotta do this with the oil Suzuki specced, so it's a fair comparison
Then you gotta redo that procedure with each and every blend your highly active little gray cells come up with, to make fair comparisons
this is gonna be work
It'll keep ya busy though, and you'll be REALLY good at disassembling / reassembling forks Wink

Part of the point is to use what I've got lying around. I don't have Suzuki fork oil lying around. Since I've run my jaw and gotten everyone emotionally invested into this thing, I'll probably buy some Suzuki oil as well as some aftermarket fork oil to compare to. I'm not sure I'll do any comparisons today. The important thing is to be ready to ride. If it seems to work alright, then it works. I'll really be able to tell in this cold weather whether any amount of motor oil will be suitable, for if it's not, the forks will act as if they are filled with custard. Grin

That reminds me, I could experiment with some Lucas (Dad loves that stuff Roll Eyes

) --thought of that yesterday. Now straight Lucas would be Gizzo's custard! Grin

Meh, bar and chain oil would probably be cheaper. Grin

By the way, WD should know that 85 weight gear oil and 30 weight motor oil are similar. http://www.torcousa.com/innov-lub-101.html SAE numbers are so screwed up. Roll Eyes

If WD wants to use something thicker than motor oil, he should look up the actual viscosity numbers. WD could try one of the above suggestions, but I honestly don't know what they would do to his forks. Undecided

Mixing motor oil and Lucas would be something to try, but still, stuff like that is weird and mysterious. Undecided

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cheapnewb24 Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1373 Virginia Gender:	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #72 - 02/10/16 at 11:26:11 Now that I think of it, If WD wants to try a gear oil, then I would suggest a blend of 140 weight with some motor oil, but with the different additive packages, I don't know how it would act chemically.
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Art Webb Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 3007 columbus, Texas Gender:	Re: Rotella as fork oil? Reply #73 - 02/10/16 at 11:29:00 I don't really think a multi vis oils is gonna be any thicker, cold, that a single weight, that's not how multi vis works, buddy
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Dave

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Re: Rotella as fork oil?
Reply #74 - 02/10/16 at 12:50:56

You should forget the Lucas, Rotella T, and other crap until you have used ATF or 15W oil to establish a base line for what the factory settings do. Chances are the bike will handle just fine, and you won't need to waste any time doing the other "testing".

And so far....you haven't proven to any of us that you like working on the bike. You may take the forks off and drain them one time....and decide that it is a lot of work. Might be that you don't want to do it a 2nd or 3rd time.

Here is some reading for you.

http://www.racetech.com/page/id/30

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