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Oil War! :D (Read 204 times)
cheapnewb24
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Oil War! :D
11/20/15 at 22:45:43
 
Okay, Okay, Don't beat me up yet  Grin

I am looking forward to my first savage oil change. I have some Rotella T and some Delo. I bought these after researching this forum. I gather that the newer formulations of this oil may be slightly short on the ZDDP. Also, two different dealerships I have talked to did not like diesel type oil such as Rotella. One even blamed some ATV engine failures on Rotella  Tongue Shocked Roll Eyes Huh Undecided. More than that, I had a missing nut from the head and it was causing an oil leak. I had to add some Rotella, perhaps slightly overful (the old trick some of you guys mention of letting a bit of oil creep to the sight glass while on the kickstand). Well, now I am noticing shifting issues, particularly when stopped or nearly stopped, just doesn't feel right sometimes. I have always had a soft clutch prone to a little slippage, but tonight, I think it outrightly slipped. Had it in 2nd or 3rd, accelerating from a four lane stop light, and it broke loose and went vroom, if you know what I mean Tongue The clutch was already engaged, I think. I may have been covering the clutch, but I can't say I caused it to slip. I doubt I had substantial pressure on the lever. I know it doesn't take much. I am guessing it just slipped: period.

From what the previous owner told me, and the miles I've put on it, the oil may be just ready to change. Maybe it's not the Rotella's fault. It may have 2500 miles on the oil change. I am not sure. I think the PO told me that it would need to be changed after 1000 miles. I've put maybe 400 on it since then  Smiley.

Who knows what he had in it. It calls for 10w-40, I think. Maybe the slightly thicker Rotella in cold weather is causing the issue; but I don't think the engine was cold when it slipped.

I have noticed for a while now that it sometimes slips in 2nd gear specifically, but I could have just blamed that on improper clutch throttle coordination. Now I wonder. I have been considering shimming the springs for a while now. I know that too much pressure could destroy the disks and stress the throwout rod/bearing. I will have to tear it down at some point anyway to change the neutral switch and check the notorious cam chain tensioner for issues. The bike has over 15900 miles on it. Might as well say 16K. It would be cool to just throw a Verslavy tensioner in it and a Barnett clutch, but I ain't made of money  Tongue.

Now, concluding my late night ramble  Roll Eyes, I welcome the opinions by the dozen Cheesy


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Dave
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #1 - 11/21/15 at 02:56:51
 
The folks that recommend against Rotella don't understand what it is, or what their oils have been losing as the formulations change.  Motorcycle dealerships are not up to speed on what the Savage needs to survive.  The folks on this forum have racked up hundreds of thousands of miles on the Savage.....and youzguyz has 140,000 miles on just one bike and the cylinder/piston has never been taken apart.  How can you doubt that kind of durability?

There is nothing in Rotella T (yet) what will make the clutch slip.  We don't recommend using a lot of throttle until the bike is warmed up - as cold oil between the clutch plates can make the clutch slip.

Don't use Suzuki 10W-40 oil that you buy from the dealership - it just doesn't have enough ZDDP to allow the cam/rockers to survive for a long time.

You need to check the cable adjustment - there should be a tiny bit of play in the lever before you feel the tension increase.....that ensures the springs inside the clutch can apply the full force to the clutch plates.  You also need to check the lever on the side of the engine case - the lever should be between the two marks cast into the case when the clutch is at rest.  If the lever is not between the marks, you need to get a different length push rod....Suzuki offers 3 different lengths.

See the clutch threads in the Tech Section for more reading on how to adjust the clutch and determine if you need a different length push rod.

And.....when you shift - be sure the clutch lever is fully released before you start applying throttle.

 
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« Last Edit: 11/21/15 at 11:52:02 by Dave »  

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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #2 - 11/21/15 at 07:41:26
 
cheapnewb24 wrote on 11/20/15 at 22:45:43:
Also, two different dealerships I have talked to did not like diesel type oil such as Rotella. One even blamed some ATV engine failures on Rotella

You might point out that rotella has the JASO MA oil cert and ask did his shop service the atv's.  becareful, likely to get you tossed out.   Grin
Quote:
Well, now I am noticing shifting issues, particularly when stopped or nearly stopped, just doesn't feel right sometimes.

time to change the oil.
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #3 - 11/21/15 at 13:28:59
 

OK, you got replied to for sharing information from unknown folks who quoted no supporting evidence whatsoever for those opinions that they held out to you.

Did you know that here on the list we do not have a very high opinion of the stealership people when working on Savages?    Mainly because they only sell 1-2 a year and only service that many at maximum levels, with very few ever coming back after the required warranty "pocket pickings".

We keep our lists of horror stories of inept stealership very jr mechanics being given Savages to work on because they are single cylinder engines and the most jr mechanics (generally still in high school) do all the work on all the kiddy bikes.  

My favorite was the kid who was told by his senior mechanics to take the engine out of the frame so he could adjust the valves easier up on the bench.   Perhaps good advice for a Honda 70, but right dumb advice for a Savage and its 170 pound engine.   This Mikey broke off the boss where the clutch cable terminates trying to get the engine out of the frame, requiring a complete motor replacement as the boss is cast into one of the case halves.   Go Mikey !!!

The dealership wound up buying the bike from the list member ......  after the terror stricken Mikey tried to zip tie and epoxy the clutch cable back into place.

Me, I'd like to see the "damage" done to an ATV engine by dino Rot T.

Wink

Go to Tech Section > Table of Contents/Index > Clutch and read how to adjust your clutch.   It starts by comparing the lever position against the marks on the side of the case, to make sure you have the correct length of push rod coming out of your clutch.  

On average we change our clutch rod 2-3 times over the life of a clutch pack ..... as the chrome lever actuation range is small compared to the total wear out range of the stacked clutch disks.    This rod also WEARS DOWN as it is the give point between the rapidly rotating clutch and the stationary actuator that is attached to the chromed clutch lever.   When this happens, you put in the CORRECT replacement rod that takes out all the cork plate compression and wear effects.

Most newbies don't know about doing that first, and they make a confused mess out of clutch adjustment because they don't start in the correct application range for the lever motion.

hint:   if you are out of the adjustment range on the side of the case, nothing you move will effect anything in a useful fashion.

Read up, then ask questions to clarify what you don't understand -- this is how we know we need to tune the Tech Postings to help make it clearer.

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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #4 - 11/22/15 at 08:03:05
 
As Versy said, and i have said on this forum more than once, Rot is JASO MA certified, go get your Rot bottle and read the back
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #5 - 11/22/15 at 08:09:23
 
If you search this site for anything oil related you'll get a ton of people recommending Rotella. Matter of fact, you probably won't get anyone recommending against it!  Wink

I use Rotella exclusively and have had no problems with it. Others have reported smoother shifting, less engine mechanical noise, etc. Get you a bottle and join the club!  Cheesy
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« Last Edit: 11/22/15 at 10:31:53 by Kris01 »  

There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

2008 S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers, Raptor
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #6 - 11/22/15 at 09:20:51
 
I was hunting information on a four wheeler and the forum had an oil thread, and guess What! The old timers were supporting Rotella.


It boils down to, IMO,
Why argue with a proven winner that is so affordable?
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #7 - 11/22/15 at 17:24:32
 
I already have a bottle, and I already looked and noticed that it is JASO-MA (Delo isn't, though). In fact, I mentioned it to the same parts man who blamed those ATV engine failures on Rotella. The funny thing is that he seemed like he did not even know what JASO-MA was! Grin Roll Eyes Tongue He recommended some sort of "Thumper" brand oil sitting on the shelf. Don't remember the manufacturer. I mentioned the ZDDP issue, and that is what he recommended. Unfortunately, he had no numbers on the zinc or phosphorus on that oil, so it was a guess at best, though it looked pretty good. I didn't buy it. He said something like "car oil for cars, motorcycle oil for motorcycles," that sort of simplistic philosophy. At another dealership, I was told that diesel oil was too thick Huh. Uh, yeah, right... 15w-40? naaaww, that stuff's thicker than refrigerated honey ya know, can't even pour the darn stuff till ya heat it with a torch.  Grin Grin Grin. He didn't say that, by the way. I do think he said it was too thick though. I tried too reason with him. I am not sure how far I got.

Speaking of stealership, I don't really like them much anyway, car dealerships included. I'm too cheap to like them. However, I did have a nut missing from the front side of the head which was causing the leak which made me have to add oil in the first place. The parts man at the dealership gave me the nut, free of charge, and one of the mechanics let me borrow a wrench to do it myself, so I got my bike fixed free ya might say Wink Of course, I warned him beforehand that I might not let them do it if it cost too much Wink. Maybe he got the message...
Or maybe he should have done it himself for free Tongue
Slave driver ain't I? Grin

Got in an argument with the owner about bike technology. I valued older,simpler, more primitive technology. He seemed to like more high tech. He did teach me the practical function of dangerously powerful brakes, ya know, the kind that locks up if you give them just a little too much pressure. (I was the only one in my MSF class to pull a stoppie during the emergency stops. I had their only TU250X. That little thing sure had some strong brakes Cheesy) I worry about the trend of mandated ABS in some places, and, on cars, electronic stability control. Yeah, I sound a little crazy Roll Eyes, but I like to have the choice to be primitive and dangerous. This sounds a little extreme and hard for me to imagine, but, if we don't watch the nanny state of this world, even motorcycles themselves could be outlawed because "they're too dangerous." Yeah, its a pretty long stretch, but that is where the "safety first" kind of thinking can end up-- self-driving cars and sitting in ones house surrounded by airbags Grin, not to mention taking away all our guns Angry.

I can certainly say the Savage has anti-lock brakes Cheesy They can't lock Tongue. (The front anyway, I locked the rear yesterday on hardtop-- nasty too-- veered to the side, jerked about when I let it catch, and had to set my foot down too Shocked The kind of things that highsiders are made of).

I can say that the one that didn't know about the oil ratings did give me a fairly good deal on turn signals Smiley (something like $5 a piece used mismatched, $35 for the K&S OE style rear, but he only had one)

The funny thing is that I have actually been going around the shops and dealerships trying to find someone who will train me OJT as a mechanic or something. Just call me Mikey Cheesy. Of course, winter tends to be a bad time for a motorcycle job. The fancy-shmancy Harley dealership was pretty depressing as they got their "Harley Certified" mechanics out of a certain school in Florida Sad.  This was a dealership in northeastern Tennessee, by the way Sad. I've already been to college and used my gov't benefits. I work part-time minimum wage.

I am a little sick of the idea of blowing my money, my parents money, and the government's money on years of schooling all for a degree--a stupid little piece of paper, which may not even guarantee expertise--that may never even get used in the first place, just so I can qualify to have a certain job.  Angry
Just think, the American Dream has come to this -- what a shame! Angry

By the way, I hope those "Harley Certified" mechanics have more sense than those engineers who designed a certain twin cam engine that blows up Grin Roll Eyes Tongue

Of course, this has nothing to do with oil. I may repost this later to another thread.

Anyway... Does replacing the clutch throwout rod eliminate slippage? I already made sure there was plenty of play in the levers along time ago. Don't remember checking the marks, though.




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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #8 - 11/22/15 at 17:39:32
 
The rod length can't make it slip. If the cable has slack, the clutch pack is gripping as much as it can.

Go get a junk lawnmower at a garage sale. Fix it. Sell it. Rinse, repeat.
Keep it all separate from household funds, build up. Get a piece of crap riding mower. Do not buy parts from the lawn and garden places, go to industrial supply houses.
Save up.
Buy a bike that isn't blown up.
Fix it.
U tube, forums..
Hunt for a forum before you buy. Few are like this place.
Yamaha Raptor forum was really bad.
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #9 - 11/22/15 at 17:51:50
 
I looked up the thumper oil. It was Bel-Ray Thumper 4T Racing oil, not sure if it was syn or dino that he had. Anyone had experience with this stuff? How about the phos. or zinc levels?

"most jr mechanics (generally still in high school) do all the work on all the kiddy bikes"

Well, I'm 25 years old and never messed with dirt bikes, so I guess I'm safe Grin.

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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #10 - 11/22/15 at 18:06:57
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 11/22/15 at 17:39:32:
The rod length can't make it slip. If the cable has slack, the clutch pack is gripping as much as it can.


Yes, the rod can make the clutch slip.  As the clutch wears the inner plate moves closer to the outside plate....and eventually the rod is too long and prevents the clutch pack from getting full tension.  That is why there are marks cast on the side of the engine.....so you can see if the rod is in need of changing to a shorter one.  The clutch plates has enough material to last through 2 more rods, and it is cheaper than buying new clutch plates.

Look at the thread in the Tech Section for the clutch rod details.
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #11 - 11/22/15 at 18:11:47
 
Never mind, a mental pic just hit. I can have slack in the cable, but the throw out is pinned against the case. Right?
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #12 - 11/22/15 at 18:32:35
 
"Go get a junk lawnmower at a garage sale. Fix it. Sell it. Rinse, repeat.
Keep it all separate from household funds, build up. Get a piece of crap riding mower. Do not buy parts from the lawn and garden places, go to industrial supply houses.
Save up.
Buy a bike that isn't blown up.
Fix it.
U tube, forums..
Hunt for a forum before you buy. Few are like this place.
Yamaha Raptor forum was really bad."

Huh Huh

Does this mean I should just buy moderately broken bikes and other small engines for cheap, fix them, and sell them for experience? I do have some mechanical experience, though I would not consider myself an born and raised mechanic by far. Perhaps I stand corrected... my Dad was a mechanic Roll Eyes. (mechanic/electrician: coal mines) I just lack enough experience, in my opinion, partly because my family's home is not the ideal mechanic's garage. One really gets discouraged with this stuff, especially when you're used to cars, trucks, tractors, and bulldozers. Ever tried to mess with dozer tracks? It can be a nightmare Angry. When it comes to bikes, with their light weight and simplicity, I might be willing to make an exception. One of my recent hobbies has been playing with Gearing Commander. For years, I have had the kind of mind that tries to figure out from time to time how to build a better engine or transmission, or something else. You might say I am a gearhead, but for certain reasons, I have had more experience in the past few years behind the computer screen than with a wrench. I have considered mechanical engineering often, but that can be a MEGA HUGE amount of trouble: several years in school, hard classes, and then, maybe, years in some sort of apprenticeship Undecided.  But then, I started for a while to become a doctor Roll Eyes.

With all this said it is a little interesting that I value old technology  Huh

My degree will end up being a business degree with an entrepreneurship concentration, good for starting my own business. I thought for a while about getting into walk behind tractors (e.g. BCS). Something about two wheels I guess  Roll Eyes I wasn't really serious about motorcycles then, to beat it all Roll Eyes

Not saying I would never go to school, but I do want to enter the job field, know that I like it, and have some success with it before I actually have to get certifications.

One step at a time Wink
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cheapnewb24
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #13 - 11/22/15 at 18:35:20
 
Dave wrote on 11/22/15 at 18:06:57:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 11/22/15 at 17:39:32:
The rod length can't make it slip. If the cable has slack, the clutch pack is gripping as much as it can.


Yes, the rod can make the clutch slip.  As the clutch wears the inner plate moves closer to the outside plate....and eventually the rod is too long and prevents the clutch pack from getting full tension.  That is why there are marks cast on the side of the engine.....so you can see if the rod is in need of changing to a shorter one.  The clutch plates has enough material to last through 2 more rods, and it is cheaper than buying new clutch plates.

Look at the thread in the Tech Section for the clutch rod details.



If the side cover lever can wiggle, can the clutch pack still be pinned open?
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Re: Oil War! :D
Reply #14 - 11/22/15 at 18:52:40
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 11/22/15 at 17:39:32:
Go get a junk lawnmower at a garage sale. Fix it. Sell it. Rinse, repeat.
Keep it all separate from household funds, build up. Get a piece of crap riding mower. Do not buy parts from the lawn and garden places, go to industrial supply houses.
Save up.
Buy a bike that isn't blown up.
Fix it.
U tube, forums..
Hunt for a forum before you buy. Few are like this place.
Yamaha Raptor forum was really bad.


Or, does this mean that successful DIY, Old Fashioned, American Dream motorcycle shops are made this way?  Smiley

Does this mean that I don't need to cower before the almighty stealerships Grin Grin

In all honesty, the owner of one local dealership was a real man. He was really cool to talk to. He used to race back in the day. Unfortunately, he was confined to a wheel chair from a broken neck. From what he said, he wasn't expected to live for 24 years after his accident, but he did. He is now in his seventies. Smiley  

I would have thought that if I could get some experience repairing many different bikes at a shop with an organized place to work, that would be a good way of getting experience. The question is a big IF.
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