Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Send Topic Print
Who wants some Math Homework? (Read 826 times)
Tocsik
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

the singularity

Posts: 1163
Denver, CO
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #45 - 11/07/15 at 10:10:15
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 11/07/15 at 09:11:09:

...      

 if you can get the zip file to read, that would be very helpful I would think ......


Looks like you need to change the extension:

".. I will attach the spreadsheet to this post (open office format, oops the forum will not let me attach a file with extension ods. Change the extension from zip to ods or xls. It is not really a zip file) so anyone can check my math or expand it out to Mountain Dew "extreme" zinc concentrations beyond 2500ppm. "
Back to top
 
 

'08|Raptor|Dyna|Stock jets & no other carb changes @ 5280' alt|'slavy CCT|Kawa front pulley|130/90 rear tire|7" LED headlight|3" straight risers|FIAMM El Grande horns|Mutazu hard bags
  IP Logged
Oldfeller--FSO
Serious Thumper
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Hobby is now
"concentrated
neuropany"

Posts: 12673
Fayetteville, NC
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #46 - 11/07/15 at 10:22:44
 

Dave, please change the file reference on Boule's spreadsheet in the Tech Section so folks don't have to go through this again.  

It isn't a zip file, it is a full folder full of stuff including Boule's two baseball practice schedules that he keeps.   AND 3 copies of the same .obd spreadsheet (Boule only used Open Office products back when he did this).

I have attached an .xls microsoft friendly version of the file to this post so you can lay hands upon it.

AHA !!!!    I see why boule renamed the file, our site text box won't take a spreadsheet format.

So it is attached as a fraudulent .zip file, just copy it to your desktop and rename it .xls
Back to top
« Last Edit: 11/07/15 at 12:57:43 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

Former Savage Owner
  IP Logged
Art Webb
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 3007
columbus, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #47 - 11/07/15 at 10:34:10
 
Oldfeller--FSO wrote on 11/06/15 at 10:39:58:

GTX dino Castrol are SN car oils, so it will be a very short conversation.

I am finding many more different types of Castro oil, especially internationally.    BP Castrol does both dino and synthetic and blended and has a different sub-brand name for each item.

There are a great many different formulations and associated sub-brand names for Castrol 10w40.   And I am getting the impression these sub-brands don't hang around for more than a year so, so they don't get into Bob's database consistently.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/mklinuxdude/VOA/e69397-001.jpg

REMEMBER, THE GRAY COLUMN IS WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE and the white column is what is actually there.

716 phosphorus and and 813 zinc .....  not so hot.   And Edge is supposed to be the good stuff synthetic but it looks like it's just a standard wimpy SN car oil, nothing special at all.

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/A9EED664E7A92C4E80257EC...

And when talking about Castrol GTX 10w40 dino oil, just look at what Castrol says it is.

"Sludge resistant" SN car oil .......

"Due to continual product research and development, the information contained herein is based on products purchased and subject to change without notification.

Typical properties may vary slightly."




I never said GTX was special, I said it was WET CLUTCH SAFE, period
the chart you posted for edge is interesting, showing Moly (bad stuff for wet clutches) at fairly high rates, but it's Edge, which I never mentioned
again, my purpose here is this

Stinger has a Savage
he uses CASTROL (we don't know what kind yet)
he has 56000 miles on his savage
he has had no issues
are we sure a lack of ZDDP at high levels is what has cause the failures we are attributing to it
we seem to have some empirical evidence that might not be the case
charts are not an argument that stands against empirical evidence
Also as I noted Rebels share something in common with our Savages
no roller valvetrain
the lack of a roller valvetrain is what we have assumed to be what causes the need for ZDDP
the Rebel lacks a roller valvetrain
it apparently is OK without high levels of ZDDP, so why isn't a Savage
a redline of 6800 RPM and a redline of 8100 RPM are not significantly different
the number of cylinders is irrelevant
we have a Savage running some type of Castrol for over half the mileage the highest mileage savage on the board has attained with high ZDDP oil, why has the valvetrain not been destroyed?
Dismissing the issue is easy, but doesn't cast any light on the answers
we should be examining this, not dismissing it on the basis of an assumption
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Oldfeller--FSO
Serious Thumper
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Hobby is now
"concentrated
neuropany"

Posts: 12673
Fayetteville, NC
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #48 - 11/07/15 at 10:58:58
 

Examine away ..... you will find that standard Castrol GTX (all weights) is now a SN dino car oil, and specs exactly what the sorry Edge stuff did as it turns out it too is a standard SN car oil.

Nobody does VOAs on Castrol GTX as Castrol says up front what it is ..... a "sludge resistant" SN dino car oil.    

Art, you need to click on the links provided in these discussions and READ what they say.

Now, Stinger and his high mileage bike.    We have done this already, with both Stinger and WD.   Here is what we found last time around the Stinger/WD  barn.    

He used different brands of oils at different times.    Both like Harley weight oil because that is what they have always used.  Some of his oil changes (I guess you could say most of them) were done a long time ago --- back when all oils all had significant amounts of ZDDP in them.    Thus he got what everybody got back then, adequate ZDDP to keep his valve train happy.

Now he's not getting that, but since the name on the jug stayed the same he considers it all good to him.   I think he's in error about that lately, but it is his bike, now isn't it?

Next, Stinger has been around this barn before and isn't likely to want to go do it again.   He just tosses out a Billish sort of statement and leaves.

WD's Savage bikes have all died electrically and been replaced (except maybe one, the one up on the cinderblocks).

If you want to play Stinger for him, that's fine ---- but you are the one making big assumptions about an oil and a situation that you can't even put a bottle type and a weight to.    Castrol is just a brand name, one that has been moved around all over the place by British Petroleum, who owns it now.

And, having been around the Stinger barn before, I can say he's had his bike a while and puts a lot of miles on it and he changes his oil regularly.   Good for Stinger.   Most of his Castrol used in his bike was probably built by Castrol Company using domestic American crude oil as the base stock.

There is a wide range between optimum and adequate --- if you keep any sort of oil in your bike and change it normally, you will get normal performance and normal life.

Do you want your Savage to need a major rebuild around 60,000 miles?   I think most of us might could use some new rings about then, but replacing the cam and tappets doesn't have to be.   Good levels of ZDDP cuts down on ring and cylinder wear too, BTW.

Savage Rob and some of the old guys have had to rebuild their engines totally and replace their cams and tappets at normal mileages using normal car oils from back in the day -- we try to do better than that now days.

Wink
     
Back to top
 
« Last Edit: 11/07/15 at 17:36:08 by Oldfeller--FSO »  

Former Savage Owner
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18099
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #49 - 11/07/15 at 12:30:35
 
A while back a member tried to compare the valve train of a small Honda engine to our Savage.  When someone posted the valve spring rates for both bikes, it was obvious the little engine had valve springs with a lot less tension on them, and I suspect the same it true for the Rebel.  When your valves are small enough for a 125cc piston....the valves are lighter and the springs don't need to be as strong as they are for a 650cc piston.  And I suspect the same may be true for those hundreds of thousands of Honda 50cc, 65cc, 70cc, 90cc, 100cc, 125cc, etc. that all share that same design that Honda started in the 60's.  Like Oldfeller said....until recently they were running oil with high levels of ZDDP.

And it is not just us Savage owners that are having problems....anyone with an old flat tappet cam in their tractor, sports car, muscle car, etc. have been experience cam/lifter/rocker problems.....and all of them need to be sure to use an oil with adequate ZDDP to fix the problem.  The ZDDP issue and cure has been adapted to our use - but we did not invent the issue and the cure - it is a common problem among folks who still operate vintage machinery.  



Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Kris01
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

Eat, sleep, RIDE!

Posts: 3767
Tennessee
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #50 - 11/07/15 at 15:38:24
 
Boule's blend table is all numbers and no formulas. Here's a link to a formula:
http://www.nitemareperformance.150m.com/ZDDP.html
Back to top
 
 

There's no problem that a full tank of gas and a sunny day can't fix!

2008 S40, Rotella T 15W-40 w/ZDDP added, Dyna, 140/90-15, Battery Tender Jr., Seat lift, #52.5/150/3 washers, Raptor
  IP Logged
springman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2217
Spring, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #51 - 11/07/15 at 16:40:48
 
75,400 parts of zddp in one ounce of red line
128 x 1100 = 140,800 parts of zddp in one gallon of rotella
128 x 1200 = 153,600 parts of zddp desired in one gallon of rotella

153,600 - 140,800 = 12,800 parts of zddp needed to add to one gallon of rotella

12,800 / 75,400 = 0.1697 the fraction of an ounce of rotella that contains the 12,800 part of zddp needed to add to the gallon of rotella to achieve 1200 ppm of zddp. So 0.2 or 1/5 of an ounce gets you pretty darn close, or 1217.8 to be exact.
Back to top
 
 

06 S40 seat mod, airhawk, HD muffler, Shinko 712 140-90-15 rear tire, Shinko 230 front tire, versy cam chain tensioner, Rotella oil, Volar brake pads, EBC clutch & springs
  IP Logged
Oldfeller--FSO
Serious Thumper
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Hobby is now
"concentrated
neuropany"

Posts: 12673
Fayetteville, NC
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #52 - 11/07/15 at 16:54:34
 

File dropper permits you to share a file in its natural format --- let's see if it can handle Boule's baby.    You will have to pick the one you want and download it.

Yes, there are formulas behind the numbers, but the list won't let them show (doesn't handle the spreadsheet format at all).

http://www.filedropper.com/blendtable       .ods format for Open Office or Libre Office  (what Boule wrote it in)

http://www.filedropper.com/blendtable_1      .xls format for MS Office lovers everywhere


Let's see if this one rings the bell.    
Back to top
 
 

Former Savage Owner
  IP Logged
springman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2217
Spring, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #53 - 11/07/15 at 16:57:15
 
Hello Kris. After looking at my last post I looked at yours again and your formula is correct, you made a mistake in your math is all. Do the math again and you will see the answer to your formula is 1214.5 ppm.

I said red line was 75,400 ppm instead of 74,500. Regardless, our indicated formulas are correct. We just need to plug in the correct numbers and do the math correctly.

Actually Kris, your formula is exact, mine is close. You accounted for the volume of the 0.2 ounce added to the 128 ounces. I did not.
Back to top
 
 

06 S40 seat mod, airhawk, HD muffler, Shinko 712 140-90-15 rear tire, Shinko 230 front tire, versy cam chain tensioner, Rotella oil, Volar brake pads, EBC clutch & springs
  IP Logged
Oldfeller--FSO
Serious Thumper
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Hobby is now
"concentrated
neuropany"

Posts: 12673
Fayetteville, NC
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #54 - 11/07/15 at 17:08:46
 

Guys, you are adding and subtracting and manipulating PPMs like they are an interchangeable concrete thing.    They are not.

PPM (parts per million) means a ratio of one item to another item divided by a million and you don't add ratios to another ratio and subtract them.    PPM is defined and always created by comparing the weights of the zinc (the heaviest part of ZDDP) to the carrier oil weight.

It isn't volume and it certainly isn't ratio vs ratio.

It is weight to weight, divided by 1,000,000.

Nobody said this was easy .......
Back to top
 
 

Former Savage Owner
  IP Logged
springman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2217
Spring, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #55 - 11/07/15 at 17:17:03
 
Hey Oldfeller. I was wondering how long it would take you. Yeah I'm chuckling Grin Grin Grin
Back to top
 
 

06 S40 seat mod, airhawk, HD muffler, Shinko 712 140-90-15 rear tire, Shinko 230 front tire, versy cam chain tensioner, Rotella oil, Volar brake pads, EBC clutch & springs
  IP Logged
springman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2217
Spring, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #56 - 11/07/15 at 17:20:46
 
You are right OF. I am just making the assumption that the weight of the oil in the red line solution and the weight of the rotella oil are close enough to make my calculation reasonably accurate.

Grin Grin Grin Yep, what is reasonably accurate.

In case you are wondering, this is the 3rd weekend in a row that is has rained here and I am going nuts.
Back to top
 
 

06 S40 seat mod, airhawk, HD muffler, Shinko 712 140-90-15 rear tire, Shinko 230 front tire, versy cam chain tensioner, Rotella oil, Volar brake pads, EBC clutch & springs
  IP Logged
Oldfeller--FSO
Serious Thumper
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Hobby is now
"concentrated
neuropany"

Posts: 12673
Fayetteville, NC
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #57 - 11/07/15 at 17:20:55
 

I was contemplating my eyelids after getting all tuckered out sucking all the rugs in my house and washing the cars.   Us old retired people do that on Saturday afternoons, you know.   Nap, that is.   Whenever the mood strikes, snooze.

Momma sez if I am going to be retired soon I'd better get used to being a house hubby because the first one retired has to do all the housework.

See if Filedropper can give you the functioning Boule spreadsheet with an extension that works with your favorite spreadsheet software.

http://www.filedropper.com/blendtable       .ods format for Open Office or Libre Office  (what Boule wrote it in)

http://www.filedropper.com/blendtable_1      .xls format for MS Office lovers everywhere

Back to top
 
 

Former Savage Owner
  IP Logged
Oldfeller--FSO
Serious Thumper
ModSquad
*****
Offline

Hobby is now
"concentrated
neuropany"

Posts: 12673
Fayetteville, NC
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #58 - 11/07/15 at 18:27:33
 

AND ..... while you are oggling them spreadsheets, oggle this a little bit.    

2013 was the time frame this comparison was done.   Gotta like that Delo 400 LE for its raw specs, but then got to toss it out because of the VERY High 117 ppm moly content.    

NAPA gets the next nod, for good specs and no moly.  

Next down the list is Walmart Supertech, which has a smidge of moly, but nothing like the Delo 400 LE has.  

Rotella T triple protect come next, but it is weak compared to the winners above it.


http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/HDEO%20SUMMARY.html

Back to top
 
 

Former Savage Owner
  IP Logged
springman
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2217
Spring, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Who wants some Math Homework?
Reply #59 - 11/07/15 at 18:49:30
 
OK, done. It appears my calculations were pretty darn close. There are 33.8 grams of zddp in a 16 ounce bottle of redline. Based on the info provided on the forum of redline having a zddp ppm of 74500 I extrapolated that one kilo of redline solvent (no additives yet) is equal 1.0527 liters. By the way this means that one gallon of redline solvent weighs 7.5993 lbs and I used this also as the weight of the rotella solvent (no additives). With this info I was able to calculate that there is 3954.976 milligrams of zddp in one gallon of rotella at 1100 ppm. From there I was able to calculate that we need 4314.516 milligrams of zddp to reach 1200 ppm. So 4314.519 - 3954.976 = 359.5432 milligrams of zddp that we need to add to the gallon of rotella to achieve 1200 ppm.
2112.5 (the number of milligrams of zddp in an ounce of redline) times 0.170198 = 359.5432 (the amount we need to add to achieve 1200 ppm)

Sorry I was not more clear, I have numbers scattered all over a spread sheet. Anyway, Kris's and my original calculations were actually correct. Cool
Back to top
 
 

06 S40 seat mod, airhawk, HD muffler, Shinko 712 140-90-15 rear tire, Shinko 230 front tire, versy cam chain tensioner, Rotella oil, Volar brake pads, EBC clutch & springs
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
09/28/24 at 08:31:19



General CategoryThe Cafe › Who wants some Math Homework?


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.