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'Owning', Slaves. (Read 444 times)
justin_o_guy2
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #15 - 06/25/15 at 14:14:26
 
The laws were screwing the South. They were upset. Only about 25% owned slaves. But everyone was suffering from the financial strains imposed on their states. It wasn't just plantation owners sons who went to war
To Protect Slavery.....




Would you sign up to go to war so the plantation owner down the road could keep his slaves?

Now if that's not enough to make someone have a
Huhhh
moment...

If it was just about slavery, and you didn't own slaves, why fight?
What %age of the approximate 25% who owned slaves  were young and tough enough to make war?
It just doesn't add up.

It's not shouted from the rooftops, but black men fought for the South.


Reconstruction?
Ohh, I don't want to go there.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #16 - 06/25/15 at 14:41:34
 
JOG -
History is full of irony.  Take a look at the American Revolution, as compared to the French and Russian Revolutions.
The French and Russian conflicts were basically, perhaps a bit over simplified, revolutions of a down trodden, poverty stricken populace rising up against tyrannical monarchs who held them down and who considered the common person to be next to dirt.
However, the American Revolution was basically, again a bit over simplified for this discussion, a revolution of the wealthy against what they perceived as an unfair tax system in which they had no voice in Parliament.
The average colonist had it pretty good, given the time.  The typical farmer, tradesman, artisan in the Colonies in no way compared to his counterpart in France at that time, nor in Russia 120 years later.  Those men we refer to as the Founding Fathers were almost all very wealthy Southern planters, or New England merchants.  Yet, through a campaign of firebrand writers like Thomas Paine and Ben Franklin, that wealthy class was able to convince the common man to shed his blood for the cause of the wealthy.  Similar to what you correctly pointed out about the average Confederate soldier.
A question I struggle with is whether, had I been alive at the time, and had been a middle class person, would I have been a revolutionary, or a loyalist.  Being a fairly conservative fellow, I may well have been a loyalist, not willing to rock the boat when my life, standard of living, and all else was fairly good by the standards of the day.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #17 - 06/25/15 at 15:04:41
 
Being a fairly conservative fellow, I may well have been a loyalist, not willing to rock the boat when my life, standard of living, and all else was fairly good by the standards of the day.



But legislation had beaten that standard down.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #18 - 06/25/15 at 15:07:36
 
JOG -
Not really.  I was a history major in undergraduate school, and studied this issue quite a bit.
The legislation you speak of was the tax legislation that hit the wealthy.  About the only thing that Parliament did that impacted the common colonist was the tea tax.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #19 - 06/25/15 at 16:07:40
 
Sorry, wrong war,  loyalists,revolutionary, kinda went right by me...
I've been so focused on the civil war.
I've never stopped to wonder,, I just may. But, in all honesty, the idea of war, the amount of trouble someone would have to cause me before I decided it was worth getting killed over,,,,, I don't know,
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #20 - 06/26/15 at 06:18:24
 
I am just shocked that Jerry and I agree on something.
Grin


--Steve
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justin_o_guy2
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What happened?

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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #21 - 06/26/15 at 07:21:46
 
Jerry said

not willing to rock the boat when my life, standard of living, and all else was fairly good by the standards of the day.


Especially considering that rocking the boat meant giving up the bed, picking up a rifle and risking getting killed.
What inspired the guys to fight against the North?  
Since even the soldiers didn't know it was about slavery, what motivated them to join up and risk their lives and Know, without doubt, hardship and discomfort, a long camping trip, hiking to places, weather, and then fight..


For someone else to keep slaves?
At least the war of independence promised to improve the lives of even those who Jerry has theoretically identified with. By removing the thumb of the oppressors,,,,  

 Ohh, wait, but look, legislation Was in place,,
The conditions in the South had been affected, for all.

The material suppliers were being screwed. Yes, largely, slave labor was involved.
The states that Had slaves but didnt secede, I wonder what was the backbone of THEIR economies. Seems like legislation had a big hand in causing the war.
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #22 - 06/26/15 at 07:26:44
 
JOG -
Specifically, what legislation, and what was is about?
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #23 - 06/26/15 at 08:16:46
 
Jerry Eichenberger wrote on 06/25/15 at 13:18:59:
A part of the real tragedy of The War Between the States was that if it could have been avoided for another 20 years, slavery would have likely died out anyhow.
As agriculture began to be mechanized in the period right after 1865, and particularly with Whitney's invention of the cotton gin, slaves would have just become too expensive and bothersome to keep.
Slave owners always had to fear revolt, and more than one Southern family was killed by their own slaves.
Then keeping a couple of dozen female slaves picking cotton seeds out of the cotton balls when that could be done by the cotton gin in a few minutes made no economic sense.  Unfortunately, the timing was off by about 20 years.
And I use the term War Between the States because to a historian, a civil war is a war between two or more factions all vying to control a country.  Not was not the case in TWBTS - the South had no desire to control the entire country - they simply wanted to secede and be done with it.


Jerry thank you sooo much for posting this!!! I would have said a similar thing but being FROM Mississippi, it seems my words would be too suspect.

It is my understanding that (TWBTS) did start as economic strife, basically an industrial North versus an agricultural ( but still rich) South. When a legislative fix could not be found, affected states decided to secede. It then became a states right issue. The rally cry as a slavery issue became prominent because a quick victory by the North just was not happening. Lincoln needed something to maintain the will of the North to continue the war... because he valued the survival of the Union (all states) above anything else.

Other odd tidbits I recall ( may not be factual)
The State of MS abolished slavery PRIOR the the end of the war, yet the war waged on WHY.. can't be about slavery???
Owing to the statement above... that MS had already free slaves, prior to the thirteenth amendment.. they did not sign the 13th until ... 1995! (Why sign it when you already free them??)

As to the right to secede. While the North decided to fight the South to prevent it, they in truth had no law to stand on. It was only AFTER the war was over that the courts made a ruling.
Here is the issue: the american colonies left the rule of England, but then fought to prevent the same type action, within its own. Two-faced much? So the courts put it this way: if the PEOPLE had revolted and said they were leaving the Union then they would have been within their right. However, a State government does NOT have that ability. ( or something to that effect as I understand it).

Let's be clear owning other people, considering them as property is horrible to me. I will not agree that slaves had it good, or any other such notion. I will say, as JOG pointed out, black slavery was but one form and one area. Chinese railroad "workers" were in most manners slaves, and died  en masse (and suspect had a much worse time than slaves in the South). Many people who came to the US did so as "indentured servants" .. and yes these were WHITE people. So the idea that somehow the SOUTH had a lock on slavery, is BS. The idea that people controlling to the enth degree the life another was common, for any race (debt bondage) for the day, and in fact continues on to this day in some most parts of the world.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #24 - 06/26/15 at 08:28:15
 
PS: this also defines my position (against) the move to make the curent illegal aliens citizens. It does not FIX the problem.

So use this:
Slaves can be an attractive investment because the slave-owner only needs to pay for sustenance and enforcement. This is sometimes lower than the wage-cost of free labourers, as free workers earn more than sustenance; in these cases slaves have positive price. When the cost of sustenance and enforcement exceeds the wage rate, slave-owning would no longer be profitable, and owners would simply release their slaves. Slaves are thus a more attractive investment in high-wage environments, and environments where enforcement is cheap, and less attractive in environments where the wage-rate is low and enforcement is expensive.

And insert migrant illegal workers for slaves. As long as corporate farms can pay a third party to supply labor at the lowest cost ( that being illegals that can't require minimum wage)...  there will always be a market for such labor. Legalizing the current population (of illegals) will only serve to make them less desirable in the labor force for which they were brought here! They WILL be unemployed and greatly disadvantaged of EVER finding gainful employment. So NEW illegal workers will need to be brought in.  

Italicized from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #25 - 06/26/15 at 08:47:07
 
Ive left links to info. Tariffs, industrialists were ripping the South off.


Fine points made, Pine.


Jerry, if you want me to try to find more, I might, I dunno, ive spent a lot of energy on it and found enough to sway me from the
Common Knowledge
that
Slavery was why wefought.

Well, shucks, what a wonderful tool to teach the people that southern whites would fight and die to keep the black man down. The loving northerners would fight and die to free them, YYET, as Rows article pointed out, the SOLDIERS who volunteered to go to war didnt know that.

Government controlled schools fail to point out the role of government in inciting the war? Naaah,
Does anyone else see how much our society could be different?
Its not in the politicians or law enforcement, big government wanting types to Have a society that gets along together. Divide and conquer.
Look at what happened to REAL uniters. MLK, John Lennon.
No lone gunmen nutjobbs go after these race baiting, division creating, creeps who come out of the woodwork when there is an Event.
Where are they in between? Where are these Uniters, Every Day?
We need, as a society , to get over Attitude towards people based on appearance.

Does knowing where someone s great great grampa was born somehow let me know whether or not that persons heart/ character were undesirable/inferior?
If someone dislikes people who are of a different color, without spending time together and judge based on Who they are, but, PREjudge, then,logically, wouldn't that person have to trust and like and appreciate and respect and GIVE to everyone who IS like himself?
Everything that one would withhold from someone due to a racist attitude,
I mean, if you being pink disqualifies you from being my friend, because I'm blue, wouldn't I hafta befriend the blues?
Naaah, there are behaviors / ideas, attitudes, many things that would exclude a person from the
Friend label.
Hard enough to find people who have the qualities that I want, so I dont Exclude people based on NonBehavioral  traits. Ive done more to unite the races than jackson and sharpton combined.
Lower case used on purpose.
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The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.- Edmund Burke.
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #26 - 06/26/15 at 08:59:42
 
Pine -
I would add to your analysis that slavery ( as relating to the time of the 1800s ) makes economic sense only in situations where manual labor, and lots of it, is needed in a given economic endeavor.
Such was the antebellum South.  An agricultural economy before the mechanization of agriculture.  Plowing done with a single bottom plow drawn by a horse could cover very little ground in a day - something makes me think less than 3 acres.  Today a huge tractor drawing a gang plow can cover over 50 acres in a day.
Cultivating was done by men with a hoe in their hands.  Harvesting was done by men picking crops with their hands.  Everything in agriculture depending upon human, manual labor, even the milking of cows.  The prefect setting for slaves, or even in today's world, underpaid illegal immigrants.
Before 1900, all of that began to change and slaves were no longer cheaper than mechanization in the South.
Here in Ohio, we are a major producer of tomatoes.  The world's largest ketchup factory is in Ohio.
40 years ago we had hordes of Mexican migrants picking tomatoes because even in the 1970s, there was no mechanical harvesting of tomatoes - they hadn't yet perfected a harvester that didn't bruise the delicate tomato.  Now they have, and the migrants are gone.
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #27 - 06/26/15 at 09:43:17
 
According to (documented) family history we fought on both sides of the Civil War, and the ancestor who was at Concord Bridge was a lower middle class farmer.   My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe that part of the problem in 1775 was that England controlled trade (imports & exports) in a manner that the colonist resented. (i.e. All goods had to "pass through" England.)    
FYI: Of course in 1700s one side of the family held the barbering concession for the French Army, the English Army, AND the American Army..... Roll Eyes
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #28 - 06/26/15 at 10:31:40
 
Jerry Eichenberger wrote on 06/26/15 at 08:59:42:
Pine -
I would add to your analysis that slavery ( as relating to the time of the 1800s ) makes economic sense only in situations where manual labor, and lots of it, is needed in a given economic endeavor.
Such was the antebellum South.  An agricultural economy before the mechanization of agriculture.  Plowing done with a single bottom plow drawn by a horse could cover very little ground in a day - something makes me think less than 3 acres.  Today a huge tractor drawing a gang plow can cover over 50 acres in a day.
Cultivating was done by men with a hoe in their hands.  Harvesting was done by men picking crops with their hands.  Everything in agriculture depending upon human, manual labor, even the milking of cows.  The prefect setting for slaves, or even in today's world, underpaid illegal immigrants.
Before 1900, all of that began to change and slaves were no longer cheaper than mechanization in the South.
Here in Ohio, we are a major producer of tomatoes.  The world's largest ketchup factory is in Ohio.
40 years ago we had hordes of Mexican migrants picking tomatoes because even in the 1970s, there was no mechanical harvesting of tomatoes - they hadn't yet perfected a harvester that didn't bruise the delicate tomato.  Now they have, and the migrants are gone.


Agreed!
Though, I think the reality was that ( then as now) only large scale concerns held the bulk of slaves (and migrant workers). By sheer numbers, "most" southern farmers were small family affairs, generally share-croppers.. way too poor to have slaves. Only large (mostly cotton) plantations could afford such. People do not eat cotton.. it is an export (mostly) export crop. Thus the economic fight was between (rich)slave holding cotton plantations and the industrial North. And still the REAL economic concern for migrant workers is between large corporate farms that hire them and ... everyone else.

I wonder... it just hit me...
What would an analysis return if the current economic situation of those related to former slaves would be compared to a future generation of former migrant workers? Ie While slaves were "freed" the economics changed to reduce the value of their labor. Of course this occurred to anyone of non-skilled farm labor (share-croppers/farmers). Why would migrant workers fare any better? The fact that they become citizens and thus protected under the law, only serves to remove the value they brought with them. (just as technology did with farming). Or maybe not... fun thinking game.
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Jerry Eichenberger
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Re: 'Owning', Slaves.
Reply #29 - 06/26/15 at 10:43:54
 
This comment is NOT meant to be racist, nor derisive of blacks.  I think, answering Pine's question, there is one major difference between former slaves and former illegals.
Slaves didn't come here of their own volition.  There were captured initially, then their children were held in bondage, often for generations.  How hard do you work under those conditions - probably just enough to avoid the whip of the overseer or other discipline.
To the contrary, the illegals, by and large, came here voluntarily, to escape poverty and crime in their own country, and to work hard to improve their stock in life.
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