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Smoke and Noise Oh my... (Read 256 times)
S-P
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Smoke and Noise Oh my...
12/14/13 at 10:53:10
 
So I replaced the cam chain tensioner and the starter limiter and a Raptor petcock. Now the bike is hard starting when cold, (in Arizona that means 45 F) I have to shoot some starter fluid in the air cleaner to get it started (first thing in the morning, starts OK the rest of the day). And I get quite a bit of white/blue smoke for a minute or so if the bike has been sitting for a few hours. I have a new noise coming from up around the valve cover area at idle, not a tapping more like a prounounced "whirrrr".
Diagnostics?
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #1 - 12/14/13 at 13:14:07
 
How did you release the tensioner onto the chain? YOu didnt press it out to make it tight, did you? Did you take the chain off?
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #2 - 12/14/13 at 15:16:25
 
Hm. I didn't take the chain off. However, while the tensioner was out I did work on the other side of the motor to put the limiter in and had to rotate the engine to get the notch lined up to get the old gear off and the new one in.  Any chance the chain slipped, timing went south or something happened on the other side when I did that?  Regarding the tensioner, basically, I just removed the tensioner and compressed the verslavy and put it back in. The plunger was fully compressed into the cylinder when I installed it and didn't move much when I took the "keeper" out. I've taken it out for a few runs. Probably put 20 miles on it and it seems to run OK, idle OK and accelerates OK, but seems like it is dogging just a bit from how it used to run. Could it have jumped timing?
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #3 - 12/14/13 at 17:09:57
 
If it still pulls right & starts up right once its warmed up, I have a hard time seein a timing issue,, Im kida stumped,., lets let some of the Deep Innards guys have a shot at it.
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #4 - 12/14/13 at 17:17:51
 
Yeah, Justin, since the timing is "set" (from what I gather), it isn't like you can be off like in a car even if the chain jumped a link. I'm wondering if the Raptor petcock is flooding the motor (I turned it to the "OFF" position last night and it still started hard this morning and fired up with some starter fluid).  The smoke is what's throwing me too, it didn't smoke before I did the changes.
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OK.... so what's the
speed of dark?

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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #5 - 12/14/13 at 18:13:37
 
Did you block off the vacuum tap on the carb?...
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #6 - 12/14/13 at 18:14:02
 
So you had up to 55 and above?
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #7 - 12/14/13 at 18:42:47
 
Yes, the vacuum is blocked off. And yes I had it up to 55-60, accelerated pretty hard, ran steady at 55, and it pulled OK through the gears, but the seat of my pants said it could be better. No missing or noticeable dead spots.  I didn't hear any loud ticking or ratttling at high speed (at least not through my helmet).  It is mainly when it is idling and when I roll the throttle on a little in neutral that I can hear a bit of noise I hadn't heard before. It doesn't seem to get louder or related to the speed of the engine that I can tell.  I may need to ride it around without my helmet and give it a listen. I could just be paranoid about the engine noises, but again, it's the hard starting and smoking that has me baffled.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #8 - 12/14/13 at 19:17:03
 
Did you adjust the valves? Id so, are you certain you had turned the engine the right way & got it on real TDC?
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #9 - 12/14/13 at 19:39:24
 
No, didn't adjust the valves after doing the work. I thought about that, but didn't think the stuff I did would affect the valve adjustment. Might not be a bad idea to just do it.  The stuff on other forums for other bikes seem to indicated oil leaking past the valve guides overnight. I just think it is kinda weird that didn't happen before the work I did.
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #10 - 12/14/13 at 21:12:54
 
Leaky valve guides would be very weird... I would disregard that thought...
That's a slow process,.. not an overnighter...

Noises, unless they are blatant, may be paranoia... (I always hear new sounds when I pay attention)...

I'd stick with just the starting, low idle symptom...
It is more concrete...

Neither a Raptor, nor a Versy mod will do that...
There must be some other culprit...
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #11 - 12/14/13 at 22:08:28
 

If he had a bad vac petcock it could have been supplying extra fuel through alternate pathways.

Change to a Raptor, no extra fuel any more.  

Think about him having starting/idling characteristics that are now apparent when before they were being masked by vac petcock malfunctions.

Afer all "poor starting" that requires a choke in wintertime is NORMAL for most folks.    Quick starting fluid being needed, not so much.

(see comments below on bad gas)

=========================

Smoking at start up, ask for mileage and oil type used.

Before I tore an engine down for Smoking at start up, I'd put in AN APPROPRIATE AMOUNT of a seal sweller into the oil and run it for an oil change to see if anything changes.   Remember, you will only use 20-25% of what is recommended for a CAR (on most bottles, anyway).

This treatment does change the weepage amount around the valve seals enough to let you see the change and let you know where your internal oil drips are coming from IF it is the valve seal.  

Once again, excess fuel can cause smoking at start up too.  

(see petcock off-on drill below)


=================


That steady whirrrr noise from the cam chain sprocket area is puzzlesome to me -- our cam chain system is by and large silent unless it has run completely out of adjuster range.

Agreed that step #1 is to do a full valve adjustment and report back what the existing clearance numbers really were before you fixed them.


====================


Next, always shut your petcock OFF as soon as you get off the bike and when you get ready to go, start it first then get it idling good then turn your petcock ON.

When you report back on the effects if any from this little trick you will be telling us if your float valve and seat are leaking on you some.


========================


You would be amazed at how many odd things take place after a rebuild because you had a very old partial tank of gas that you had topped off with whatever you had sitting around in a can somewhere.

Get some fresh gas in the bike too ....
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #12 - 12/14/13 at 23:20:54
 
S-P wrote on 12/14/13 at 15:16:25:
Any chance the chain slipped, timing went south or something happened on the other side when I did that?


I've tried this, and it's very difficult for this to happen.  I couldn't get it to do it.  You would've had to force the crank and probably hear a snap.
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #13 - 12/14/13 at 23:28:46
 
S-P
Did your petcock malfunction and did you get fuel in your airbox? in your crankcase?
Did you run the bike with fuel in the oil? (might not have noticed it at the time)
When you had your case side off, did you cover it so as not to get moisture in the case? (could be residual water slipping past the piston rings and burning)
Just asking.... i'm not a savage guru... so i'll let them talk ya thru it.
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Re: Smoke and Noise Oh my...
Reply #14 - 12/15/13 at 09:11:42
 
Thanks, everyone. I was wondering about the new petcock. My old one was definitely going, the bike was hesitating on acceleration, idling crappy etc. (I did have the carb re-jetted and the airbox removed etc. already.  I didn't have to choke it to get started after that. It does run better with the new Raptor.  

I did start shutting it off after I ride it, I'm wondering if maybe I should shut it off a few seconds before I shut the bike down and see if that makes a difference for possible flooding. I did stuff all the openings, so I don't think it is water in the case. I may change the gas since I did drain it into our lawnmower gas can to change the petcock. It looked clean, but you never know. I'll definitely do a valve adjustment and check the pre-adjustment gaps. If that doesn't work then the sealer in the oil.  

Mileage? That's a mystery, it's a used 86 engine in a 2005 frame, the previous owner claimed "low miles". That's why I checked the tensioner. It was about 15mm out.  The shop I took it to to replace the oil seal in the head said the cam and jug looked good, so no blatant signs of high mileage or abuse. I put 20-50 Mobil synthetic oil in it so it shouldn't be too thin for our weather.

And yeah, noises on an aircooled engine can drive you nuts. My old VW's were always talking to me in foreign languages.  Cheesy
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