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US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate (Read 203 times)
srinath
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #15 - 02/12/13 at 05:46:50
 
Oh yea, we are way better than all the 3rd, 4th and 5th world countries.
So what is your point ?

Yea we (The US) lead the world in people going nuts and shooting random people.

In India - yea we do love our guns. BTW India's only individual olympic medals usually come in archery or shooting. Rifles are the weapon of choice there.

Cool.
Srinath.

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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #16 - 02/12/13 at 07:02:24
 
Pesci says


I personally believe it has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, or any other source of Law; I personally believe it has to do with the inherent character of a People as a whole; some are more pacate and easy going, others are inherently more aggressive.

As proof of what I'm saying, 15 years ago we lived in England and she worked at ER of the local hospital (Princess Margaret's in Swindon, Wiltshire, it's on Googlemaps) - and when she worked the "week of nights", a week long night shift, I was NOT happy.

So, all in all, it's not about reading what's written in the 2nd Amendment, but what you DO with the right you are granted, and how you handle the responsibilities.






I personally believe it has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, or any other source of Law; I personally believe it has to do with the inherent character of a People as a whole; some are more pacate and easy going, others are inherently more aggressive.

Society Has its ills. Oddly, as bad as it is with poverty & people not well & less hope for the future economically, political upheavals, etc., & as many more guns as there are now, Crime is Down,, by a lot,

I am more than a little shocked at the decline in the moral fiber of America AND the decrease in crime.
Also, the number of "Children" shot & killed is a lie. That stat is just a lie, because there is no section in that area of data for Drug Gang related.
A good many "Children" are teenage boys I wouldnt want to be left alone in a room with, for fear of my life.
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srinath
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #17 - 02/12/13 at 08:17:44
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/12/13 at 07:02:24:
Society Has its ills. Oddly, as bad as it is with poverty & people not well & less hope for the future economically, political upheavals, etc., & as many more guns as there are now, Crime is Down,, by a lot,



Yes and no ... to crime being down ... you see armed property crime is down ... and I dont even think its the result of guns at all ... remember in the 90's your car would get broken into for the stereo. The stereo had a removable face plate and a security lock code. You will remove it or you'd lock it or something like that ... else your car will be broken into and it will be stolen. Yea why is that ? Oh yea your car has a gun and it will shoot someone who breaks in ? hell no ... the bloody thing is worthless. Car stereos are 10 bucks on craigslist. No one is going to put in all the effort and run the risk for that.

Anyway armed property based crime is down (as in someone breaks into your house/car to steal your stereo, cos its not lucrative.

But random mass killings using guns are way up. The last few years it has been pushing 300 per year in 10 or so incidents per year. That is all due to the easy availability of guns and bullets.

We are not trying to stop the former with gun or bullet control. We wont. We have reduced it via a reduction in market value of stolen property.

The second category we can cut down by making bullets more $$$. No one is going to worry about dumping 300 bullets into a crowd when it costs them 20 bucks. If it was to cost $30,000 in cash, that will make a difference.

BTW that wont violate the second amendment at all ... it says nothing about price.

Cool.
Srinath.
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #18 - 02/12/13 at 09:17:45
 
[quote author=74756E6966736F070 link=1360516569/15#17 date=1360685864]justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/12/13 at 07:02:24:
The second category we can cut down by making bullets more $$$. No one is going to worry about dumping 300 bullets into a crowd when it costs them 20 bucks. If it was to cost $30,000 in cash, that will make a difference.


If you're going to dump 300 bullets into a crowd I don't think you care what your credit score looks like. I doubt you're saving up for an early retirement.


--Steve
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #19 - 02/12/13 at 09:45:09
 
[quote author=3203100313170316620 link=1360516569/15#18 date=1360689465]srinath wrote on 02/12/13 at 08:17:44:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/12/13 at 07:02:24:
The second category we can cut down by making bullets more $$$. No one is going to worry about dumping 300 bullets into a crowd when it costs them 20 bucks. If it was to cost $30,000 in cash, that will make a difference.


If you're going to dump 300 bullets into a crowd I don't think you care what your credit score looks like. I doubt you're saving up for an early retirement.


--Steve



No one said credit card ... cash, as in $ bills only, no check, no credit card, no cashiers check ... cash only. He he, I knew you guys weren't getting my point, I have been saying cash for the last few months, since I came up with that tax a bullet plan.

Cool.
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #20 - 02/12/13 at 09:55:17
 
If you look globally,.. our murder rate does look low...
... but if you look at countries that are are economically comparable,.. we have a murder rate 3 to 10 times worse than other countries...

Do you really think the US murder rate should be similar to, the Palestinian Territories, Philippines, Peru, Uruguay, Albania, Lebanon, and Costa Rica?...
That's not in the greatest company... but that's where we rank...Huh...

We stand 78th...
Count the number of countries below the 50th ranked, that you would feel comfortable taking your family on vacation...
Huh...



Quote:
Rank      Country/Region            Rate
-------     ----------------------------            ----------
 1      Myanmar                  0.2
 2      Sudan                  0.3
 3      Egypt                  0.4
 4      Japan                  0.5
 5      Singapore                  0.5
 6      Botswana                  0.5
 7      Morocco                  0.5
 8      Madagascar            0.5
 9      Hong Kong            0.6
10      United Arab Emirates            0.6
11      Oman                  0.6
12      Vanuatu                  0.7
13      Greece                  0.8
14      Denmark                  0.8
15      Austria                  0.8
16      Norway                  0.8
17      Qatar                  0.8
18      Ireland                  0.9
19      Luxembourg            0.9
20      Saudi Arabia            0.9
21      Jordan                  0.9
22      Iceland                  1
23      Netherlands            1
24      Germany                  1
25      Kuwait                  1
26      Bahrain                  1
27      Indonesia                  1.1
28      Syria                  1.1
29      Spain                  1.2
30      Italy                  1.2
31      Tunisia                  1.2
32      Australia                  1.3
33      New Zealand            1.3
34      Maldives                  1.3
35      Brunei                  1.4
36      Algeria                  1.4
37      Belgium                  1.5
38      Slovenia                  1.5
39      Nigeria                  1.5
40      France                  1.6
41      Poland                  1.6
42      Cyprus                  1.7
43      Chile                  1.7
44      Fiji                  1.7
45      Portugal                  1.8
46      Malta                  1.8
47      Croatia                  1.8
48      Canada                  1.9
49      Tonga                  2
50      United Kingdom            2.1
51      Hungary                  2.1
52      China                  2.1
53      Korea South            2.2
54      Czech Republic            2.2
55      Slovakia                  2.3
56      F.Y.R.O.Macedonia            2.3
57      Sweden                  2.4
58      Romania                  2.4
59      Malaysia                  2.4
60      Azerbaijan                  2.4
61      Mauritius                  2.5
62      Armenia                  2.5
63      Israel                  2.6
64      Finland                  2.8
65      Dominica                  2.8
66      Bolivia                  2.8
67      Switzerland            2.9
68      Iran                  2.9
69      Bulgaria                  3.1
70      Nepal                  3.4
71      India                  3.7
72      Turkey                  3.8
73      Yemen                  4
74      Palestinian Territories            4
75      Philippines                  4.3
76      Sant Kitts andNevis            4.8
77      Peru                  5.5
78      United States            5.6
79      Uruguay                  5.6
80      Albania                  5.7
81      Lebanon                  5.7
82      Costa Rica            6.2
83      Georgia                  6.2
84      Sao Tome and Principe      6.2
85      Namibia                  6.3
86      Sri Lanka                  6.7
87      Moldova                  6.7
88      Estonia                  6.8
89      Seychelles            7.4
90      Ukraine                  7.4
91      Uganda                  7.4
92      Barbados                  7.5
93      Tanzania                  7.5
94      Tajikistan                  7.6
95      Kyrgyzstan            8
96      Belarus                  8.3
97      Zimbabwe                  8.4
98      Thailand                  8.5
99      Latvia                  8.6
100      Papua  New Guinea            9.1
101      Lithuania                  9.4
102      Argentina                  9.5
103      Panama                  9.6
104      Suriname                  10.3
105      Paraguay                  12.6
106      Nicaragua                  12.8
107      Mongolia                  12.8
108      Mexico                  13
109      Swaziland                  13.6
110      Guyana                  13.8
111      Bahamas                  15.9
112      Kazakhstan            16.8
113      Ecuador                  18.3
114      Russia                  19.9
115      Guatemala                  25.5
116      El Salvador            31.5
117      Venezuela                  33.2
118      Jamaica                  34.4
119      South Africa            47.5
120      Lesotho                  50.7
121      Colombia                  62.7
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WebsterMark
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #21 - 02/12/13 at 10:16:54
 
But random mass killings using guns are way up.

I'm not sure that's true.

Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise.
Reality: Over the past three decades, there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the United States, each with at least four victims killed by gunfire. Occasionally, and mostly by sheer coincidence, several episodes have been clustered closely in time. Over all, however, there has not been an upward trajectory. To the contrary, the real growth has been in the style and pervasiveness of news-media coverage, thanks in large part to technological advances in reporting.
James Alan Fox is the Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern University. He has written 18 books, including his newest, "Violence and Security on Campus: From Preschool through College."
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #22 - 02/12/13 at 10:19:20
 
If you look globally,.. our murder rate does look low...
... but if you look at countries that are are economically comparable,.. we have a murder rate 3 to 10 times worse than other countries...


there's a very easy and simple explanation why those numbers are what they are if you have the courage to face the truth.
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #23 - 02/12/13 at 11:08:03
 
[quote author=494853545B4E523A0 link=1360516569/15#19 date=1360691109]Paraquat wrote on 02/12/13 at 09:17:45:
srinath wrote on 02/12/13 at 08:17:44:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/12/13 at 07:02:24:
The second category we can cut down by making bullets more $$$. No one is going to worry about dumping 300 bullets into a crowd when it costs them 20 bucks. If it was to cost $30,000 in cash, that will make a difference.


If you're going to dump 300 bullets into a crowd I don't think you care what your credit score looks like. I doubt you're saving up for an early retirement.


--Steve



No one said credit card ... cash, as in $ bills only, no check, no credit card, no cashiers check ... cash only. He he, I knew you guys weren't getting my point, I have been saying cash for the last few months, since I came up with that tax a bullet plan.

Cool.
Srinath.


Never took a cash advance? Never lied to get a loan?
Exaggerated on a car loan?


--Steve
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #24 - 02/12/13 at 17:51:17
 
[quote author=4475667565617560140 link=1360516569/15#23 date=1360696083]srinath wrote on 02/12/13 at 09:45:09:
Paraquat wrote on 02/12/13 at 09:17:45:
srinath wrote on 02/12/13 at 08:17:44:
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/12/13 at 07:02:24:
The second category we can cut down by making bullets more $$$. No one is going to worry about dumping 300 bullets into a crowd when it costs them 20 bucks. If it was to cost $30,000 in cash, that will make a difference.


If you're going to dump 300 bullets into a crowd I don't think you care what your credit score looks like. I doubt you're saving up for an early retirement.


--Steve



No one said credit card ... cash, as in $ bills only, no check, no credit card, no cashiers check ... cash only. He he, I knew you guys weren't getting my point, I have been saying cash for the last few months, since I came up with that tax a bullet plan.

Cool.
Srinath.


Never took a cash advance? Never lied to get a loan?
Exaggerated on a car loan?


--Steve



I've barely got enough credit to get a 30K cash advance and trust me people in my situation dont go nuts as often as the crackheads like the sandy hook guy did.
Anyway I cant stop all of the crazies cos the NRA wont let me. We'd have to institute a huge level of checks and enforce them all, and have gun crime and use and other types of data all of which the NRA has blocked off to let all the complete evidence be allowed to suggest a theory ... all of that has been choked off by the NRA.

I am just proposing what may choke the bullet supply to a trickle. I have no evidence this will work ... no one has it, its never been tried. Anything that has been tried the evidence and the studies on it have been blocked by the NRA. The NRA is a defacto arm of the gun companies. They wont let any evidence be collected on anything gun related. In the absence of any data, I can only suggest a starting point.

Now after that is done, maybe we will see a drop in random crowd killings, but we may see a unacceptable decrease in self defence killings. You may see 300 murders drop to 100, but see a rise of 200 or whatever is unacceptable in the lack of self defense ... "like this guy was in my house and I wish I had had a gun" type ...
Maybe then we have to change the $100 to $50 ... or work a different angle.

We dont know, because we have not got access to the data cos NRA has blocked it ...

So I'd say in the words inspired by my man Wayne LaPierre "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a $100 federal tax on each bullet to be paid in cash only".

Cool.
Srinath.
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #25 - 02/13/13 at 06:58:53
 
WebsterMark wrote on 02/12/13 at 05:03:19:
polite reply to WebsterMark's sarcasm,
I wasn't being sarcastic Mpes; i was pointing out you were tossing out numbers as facts which are not even close to being correct.

Fact is; as Jerry pointed out elsewhere; remove the gang shootings and gun violence in the US drops to almost nothing. The girl in Chicago who was in Hopey's inauguration was killed by gang members mistaking her for another gang member who 'invaded their turf". Excuse me punk, but you don’t have a turf….

I’ve been to Italy twice and spent a day in Bergamo just walking around all day. Walked all the way down the hill because the tram was out of service and then roamed the town. Never felt unsafe at all. Why? Was it lack of guns? No. Honestly, and we all know this is the reason; almost everyone has the same color skin. Gun crime in the US is centered around inner city gangs which are chiefly populated by Black Americans. After years and years of immigration, we now have heavy Hispanic gangs as well.

You’re right to a certain degree Mpes; the American culture is to blame. But the reality is, it’s the self-destructive nature of American Black culture that is at the heart of it. That’s why in my mind it was so disappointing for the majority of Hispanic voters to fall in step behind Obama and the Democrats. If they follow the lead of Black Americans and become comfortable with welfare and handouts, if they become comfortable with substandard living conditions;  if they become comfortable with being told to accept their fate rather than pursue a better lifestyle,  then the US is completely screwed.  


I had to highlight these two statements, because they deserve to be commented.

1. Webstermark, check my statements with post #20, check out the US and Italy, then ask yourself why I do not feel at risk walking the streets after dark.
Indeed, you'd be surprised there's more traffic in Rome around midnight than there is at dinnertime !
Why ? Because people go out and enjoy themselves, that's why !

2. Webstermark, if you only cared looking around yourself when in Bergamo, you'd have noticed political symbols in the shape of a green, six-pointed leaf all over the place



This symbol, once known as "the Flower of Life", was adopted by a far-right political party which has a territorial identity, more than a political identity: this land is my land and if you are an immigrant you don't belong here.
By your (USA) terms, imagine living in NYC or Boston, and  anybody coming from south of the Potomac being booed at, hissed at and (not so) politely invited to pack and leave and go home...

We don't have blacks, true; we do have our more than fair share of Albanians, Rumanians, Moldovans, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Peruvians, Philipinos, not to mention Moroccans, Tunisians, Egyptians and now Kurds and Afghanis.

Are they all criminals and terrorists ? No, most of them are starving desperadoes who'd rather enslave themselves to slave merchants and starve in Europe, than starve back home (and get shot at by drones).

BUT there are criminals among themm, and guess what? You can't tell a southern Italian from a Tunisian or a Moroccan, any more than you can tell an illegal immigrant from Brazil... from Bill Cosby.

So, IT IS about the overall character of a specific society.
Call it culture, call it heritage, call it anthropological qualities, the result is the same.

Italy, murder rate 1.2 (30th)
U K , murder rate  2.1 (50th)
U S A murder rate 5.6 (78th)
H3LL !!! I'd be safer off living in Gaza !!! (74th with 4.0)  Undecided

PS You're welcome to come again and enjoy the night life in Rome  Wink

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srinath
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #26 - 02/13/13 at 07:32:34
 
WebsterMark wrote on 02/12/13 at 10:16:54:
But random mass killings using guns are way up.

I'm not sure that's true.

Myth: Mass shootings are on the rise.
Reality: Over the past three decades, there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the United States, each with at least four victims killed by gunfire. Occasionally, and mostly by sheer coincidence, several episodes have been clustered closely in time. Over all, however, there has not been an upward trajectory. To the contrary, the real growth has been in the style and pervasiveness of news-media coverage, thanks in large part to technological advances in reporting.
James Alan Fox is the Lipman Family Professor of Criminology, Law, and Public Policy at Northeastern University. He has written 18 books, including his newest, "Violence and Security on Campus: From Preschool through College."



OK lets try this ... 20 killings with 4 per = 80.
The last 3 years are 282 for 2012, 250 something in 2010 and 230 something in 2011.

I'd call 80 -> 280 as an up - maybe James Alan Fox wont. Like I said, we need data, un blocked, un encumbered, un biased data. All else isn't gonna suggest a theory. Maybe he has data that we dont ... maybe he has a bias I dont ... maybe I have a bias he doesn't. Maybe he has a need to sell books that I dont.

Cool.
Srinath.
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #27 - 02/13/13 at 09:30:08
 
[quote author=716C796F7F7D68736E751C0 link=1360516569/15#25 date=1360767533]WebsterMark wrote on 02/12/13 at 05:03:19:
PS You're welcome to come again and enjoy the night life in Rome  Wink

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/08/05/travel/05globe-rome-river-nigh...


Looks lovely. I wonder how the purists would they treat someone like me? My grandfather was the last purebred Sicilian in my family. I still carry an obviously Italian name.


--Steve
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #28 - 02/13/13 at 16:08:15
 
Im guessing its a mass shooting when one gang of drug thugs shoots up another gang,,& we arent Given that kinda data. That would make it too easy to see how much of a lie this whole

Be Afraid, be very afraid
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srinath
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Re: US High in Gun Ownership, Low in Murder Rate
Reply #29 - 02/13/13 at 18:17:45
 
justin_o_guy2 wrote on 02/13/13 at 16:08:15:
Im guessing its a mass shooting when one gang of drug thugs shoots up another gang,,& we arent Given that kinda data. That would make it too easy to see how much of a lie this whole

Be Afraid, be very afraid
push is.



Yes, we aren't given that kind of data ... but guess who has blocked it ?

The NRA ... sorry JOG, the information has been locked up by the NRA, worse yet, you can file a FOIA for it ... but no one will respond, the funding for it has been stripped by the NRA.

OK lets see how it adds up, and why the NRA wants to block it. You know the mass shooting information ... that is in every news paper and you can just count for it, in fact that count is released by the govt and every city and state ...

However, to start to separate the murders, accidents, the other crime and incidental murder, crime of passion, gang related and random killings ... you will need to get all the separate information collected and categorised ...
Then when people start to see how small a number is that are defensible by you owning a gun (I would classify only the incidental murder - as in break in and murder cos you woke up and walked out and saw the criminal ...) the NRA will have no fear to pedal and hence wont sell more guns.
Govts release all sorts of numbers. My local news every other day has shootings and other deaths ... including 3 from hypothermia few days ago ... the common man cant get information across the country ... the feds are the only ones that can ... and the NRA has blocked that.

The NRA creates fear among the people that can be solved by owning a gun.
Gun companies sell the guns to people.
They then funnel part of their profits to the NRA. Ruger sold 1.2 million guns and they donated $1 per gun to the NRA. The NRA isn't interested in telling people this many people were killed in home invasions ... you'd easily see how small that is and realise you're buying a gun to defend yourself against a 1 in 12 trillion (or some such number) chance.

They want you to be "protected" to the limit @ all times ... if you need 12 guns around your waist 6 in the car, 19 in your bedroom, 8 in your kitchen, 35 in your garage and 52 when you're in the bathroom ... just in case the "bad guy" comes up through the toilet ... who are they to say what you can and cant have ...

The NRA is a used car salesman for new guns. Theu dont want to tell you how many of their guns kill some one not intended and how often they do it.

Cool.
Srinath.
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