Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 ... 22 23 24 25 
Send Topic Print
Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again! (Read 17584 times)
ThumperPaul
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1361
Houston, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #345 - 07/05/24 at 05:22:30
 
Dave, do I remember correctly…you are replacing the 97mm piston with the 94mm flat top?

Is that right?  I can’t remember why you wanted to downsize from 97 to 94.  Was it compression ratio and/or lighter weight?

If I ever decide to try a higher performance piston, I’m trying to learn what I should be considering.  Wanting to understand why you are making the change.  Thanks.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
LANCER
Serious Thumper
Alliance Member
*****
Offline

Savage Beast
Performance Parts

Posts: 10622
Oklahoma
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #346 - 07/05/24 at 06:07:18
 
The piston Dave removed was a 95mm poptop and that is being replaced with a 94mm flattop dished piston with a higher compression ratio.  The flattop dished piston was a complete redesign of the old poptop.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #347 - 07/05/24 at 06:46:46
 
badwolf wrote on 07/04/24 at 17:47:00:
Dave, Check your old pistons oil holes front and back. See if they are starting to gunk up, or maybe you don`t have enough miles on it yet. Just wondering how soon that starts. (or maybe it was my seldom over 4k riding style)


My rides are mostly in the 3,000 - 4,000 rpm range.  Once I get beyond the populated areas the roads often go for 20 miles without any gear changes or intersections.  I seldom go through the gears with more than 1/2 throttle......these roads are more fun in the corners than they are on the straight parts.
I was able to get the rings off this morning.  The grooves look good with a minor amount of burned oil on the exhaust side of the oil grooves.  There is no deposits in the holes.
Back to top
 

IMG_3615.JPG

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #348 - 07/05/24 at 06:55:37
 
LANCER wrote on 07/05/24 at 06:07:18:
The piston Dave removed was a 95mm poptop and that is being replaced with a 94mm flattop dished piston with a higher compression ratio.  The flattop dished piston was a complete redesign of the old poptop.


Yep - I am a bit curious to see the difference a "proper" piston makes!  The DR650 piston works in the Savage - but it really wasn't intended for it.  When the DR650 piston with 10.5/1 compression ratio is put in the Savage the compression is really down around 9.2-9.5/1 depending on the bore size piston you used.  Also the quench area on the outside of the piston is big and not ideal for performance.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1588580303/0

When I put in the 95mm Wiseco I chose it so that if something went wrong I had the ability to go to the bigger 96 or 97mm pistons.  As it turns out the Wiseco pistons are very reliable and durable.  I just checked my clearances and the piston/cylinder clearance is 0.004", the top ring has 0.014" end gap and the 2nd ring has 0.015" end gap - I will have to go back and look but those are very close to what they were when I installed the piston 17,000 miles ago.

I should say there is really nothing to complain about with the 95mm Wiseco pop up that was built for the DR650.  It provides a good performance boost and along with the other things I have done the bike has far more power than a stock Savage.  It does not use any oil between changes, I can run on 87 octane when I have to (some rural areas only have a 87 octane and a diesel pump available).  The engine starts right up and never misses a beat all day long! Smiley

With the flat top piston and a 10.5/1 compression ratio the use of 87 octane is likely not an option anymore.
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Ruttly
Serious Thumper
*****
Online

Thumpers Rule

Posts: 5056
Manteca , CA
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #349 - 07/05/24 at 08:28:02
 
Higher compression definitely relates more power , even on reg fuel. It runs ok on reg but the higher the octane the crisper the throttle gets. Feed it good fuel. I prefer a tank full of high test with a 1 qt can of the lawnmower fuel you get at the hardware store. That combo wakes up the performance. No need for octane booster with the canned fuel. Crisp , all throttle , no coughs , hiccups or farts , just $hit n git ! Now for some red dot training.
Hope the new piston serves you well.
Back to top
 
 

The Topic Terminator
  IP Logged
ThumperPaul
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1361
Houston, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #350 - 07/05/24 at 09:08:58
 
Thank Lancer and Dave.  Looking forward to hearing what you think!

I guess you have another cylinder laying around for the 94mm.  Or how do you make the switch back down from 95 to 94mm?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #351 - 07/05/24 at 09:52:06
 
ThumperPaul wrote on 07/05/24 at 09:08:58:
I guess you have another cylinder laying around for the 94mm.  Or how do you make the switch back down from 95 to 94mm?


Yep - I have a few sets of pistons and cylinders on the shelf.   Roll Eyes

It is an addiction - I gathered up some spare parts and even a couple of engines just in case I blow something up!!!
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #352 - 07/05/24 at 18:25:57
 
I got things done today - but going together is always slower than taking things apart.  There is the need to keep things clean, the need to put things back in the same order they came off, and the need to check clearances and tightness of fasteners.

Based on the fact that the other piston rings had 0.014" top ring and 0.015" second ring end gaps and worked fine - I decided to go with a bit looser fit on this higher compression piston.  I used 0.016" top ring and 0.020" 2nd ring.  This is right between what Wiseco recommends for high performance street/strip.

I also had to drag out some metal bending equipment to make a ring compressor....I wasn't happy with the one I had made a few years ago.
Back to top
 

IMG_3618.JPG

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #353 - 07/05/24 at 18:28:53
 
The ring compressor is a little taller than I would like - but it worked.  Later on I will clamp it to a stock piston in my lathe and see if I can trim some metal off - it is stainless and trying to cut it with shears or a hacksaw or cut off wheel is likely just going to make a mess.

In addition to the ring compressor - I made a wood block to hold the piston up while I placed the cylinder down over the piston and rings.
Back to top
 

IMG_3620.JPG

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #354 - 07/05/24 at 18:29:55
 
I then was able to get the cylinder onto the case.
Back to top
 

IMG_3616.JPG

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #355 - 07/05/24 at 18:31:31
 
Here is the bottom of the head.  I did not polish the aluminum combustion chamber this time - but I did coat the valves with the Cerakote thermal barrier (front and back)......and I also coated the exhaust port.
Back to top
 

IMG_3617.JPG

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #356 - 07/05/24 at 18:34:52
 
I was able to get the head on - but it is not yet attached.

Tomorrow I will hunt up the copper washers, read DragBikeMike's thread on the lube and sealer to use - then tighten down the head.

The weather is supposed to be drier and hotter over the next few days - I will likely work outside in the yard in the mornings and in the garage in the afternoons when it is hot!
Back to top
 

IMG_3619.JPG

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4302
Honolulu
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #357 - 07/05/24 at 23:44:03
 
Dave, I just can't get enough of your cafe.  It is simply beautiful.  Did you have to humiliate me with those shots of the work area.  It's like open heart surgery.  I can't even detect a micron of dirt anywhere.  How in the world do you keep things so clean.

Your rocker arms and cam look great.  I have had poor luck with the welded cams.  I suspect that's a result of poor welds.  As I recall, you had a problem with your cam a few years back.  Web replaced it.  How many miles are on the cam shown in the current photos?  The Web cams I ran were used with heavy springs.  I wonder if the pitting was a result of the increased spring pressure.

After 17K you can still see the tool marks on your piston, only the bottom edge of the skirt is polished.  Pretty sweet.  I don't understand those scuff marks.  I always see those when I tear a project down for an inspection.  I can't feel them, can't snag a fingernail on them, but they are clearly a visual indication of something.  I wish I could figure out what's goin on with those scuff marks.

I feel for you with the oil weeps/seeps/leaks.  I just can't seem to solve my oil weep issues.  Seems like capillary action just draws the oil though all the crevices.  I just finished converting to an external oil feed.  No more pressurized oil goin up through the cylinder.  If I continue to struggle with the oil weeps, it will be coming from a drain, not a pressurized passage.

How do you like working on your engine in the frame?  I really like it.  To me, it's way less invasive and also comfortable.  I don't have to worry about tipping the engine over, or having it fall off the work bench.  Application of torque to the primary drive gear, clutch, flywheel nut, alternator rotor, and drive pulley nut can all be accomplished safely, without fear of dumping the whole shiteree on the deck.  It's the ideal engine stand.

You mentioned that you were able to easily remove your rings.  By any chance do you recall if your 2nd ring was a bit tight?  It would be very helpful to me if you happen to recall how tight that 2nd ring was on the back side of the piston (intake side).

Could you take a look at the butt faces of your old rings, the rings off the 95mm pop-top?  You run your butt gaps waaaaay smaller than I do.  I am interested to hear if there as any polish on the faces of the butts, any sort of indication that the butts are touching.

I agree, the 87 octane will no longer be an option with the flat-top piston.  You're gonna have a lot of squeeze with that flat-top.  Please do a compression check and let us know how much you pump.  It should be about 240 psi.  BTW, what is your quench clearance?

You make your own ring compressor???  I gotta hand it to you.  That's pretty resourceful.  I'm too lazy.  Looks to me like you did a really nice job on the tool.

Please keep the pics of your project comin.  It's an inspiration.  Very nice indeed.

Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #358 - 07/06/24 at 05:43:05
 
My Webcam/rocker arm issue was likely a result of poor machining.  I did the work before I knew much about the Savage engine or knew Lancer well.  I ordered the cam directly from Webcam, and they state the rockers need to be hardwelded for their warranty to be valid.  I sent them the rockers and they hardwelded them - unfortunately they did a poor job.  I really didn't know that until I took the engine apart many miles and years to fix the head plug leak (before Versy made the improved head plug).  I discovered that the rockers had not been ground square and the rocker feet were not making full contact across the rocker wearing face - they had also ground one a bit offset and it was not fully aligned with the cam lobe and hung off the edge a bit.  (I will have to look back and see if I have any record of the mileage on the bike when I replaced that Stage 1 cam with the current Stage 3.  (I might have some old photos of the cam and will look for them).

The piston rings in the old piston were loose and easy to rotate.  I looked at the end gaps and there is no evidence of them touching, there is a light coating of carbon on the ends of the rings.  I am running what Wiseco recommends for High Performance Street/Strip at 0.016" Top and 0.020" 2nd.  This is a bit larger than the 0.014""0.015" that this piston has.  I know you run your clearances larger - I believe you run your bike harder and make far more power than my bike does....these closer gaps appear to work for me and my more relaxed riding style.
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 17945
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!
Reply #359 - Today at 07:29:28
 
In 2018 I removed the pawl from the cam chain tensioner and made a spacer to fit behind the plunger to limit the travel of the plunger back into the housing.  This has been working fine and I don't really believe there was much of a change (unfortunately I did not record the extension anywhere that I can find it).

My new method is to make a new plunger with a longer shaft so that there is more plunger contained in the housing - which both limits the backward travel but also has more plunger in the housing to prevent the bind that can happen when the stock plunger extends too far.

I first used my lathe to cut the plunger diameter, then a milling machine to cut the flats in a 5/8" bar.

Back to top
 

IMG_3624.JPG

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
Pages: 1 ... 22 23 24 25 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
07/08/24 at 08:31:55



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Thumpin' Special......On The Road Again!


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.