SuzukiSavage.com - Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?

blackhalo

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Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
10/13/12 at 20:13:00

Hi guys, I'm looking at getting some Chumps/Apes soon...
and in the process I want to minimize the clutter on the bars.

I'm gonna move some of the important electrical into switches, probably mounted on the lower side panel, and hide the rest...
so I'm not concerned about that part (ideas / advice are always welcome tho).

I've seen some low profile (and cheap) clutch/throttle replacements on LowbrowCustoms and other places...
so that should also be fairly straight-forward (I've disassembled my bars before).

But... I'm not certain about the Master Cylinder...
can I use a smaller master cylinder on this bike?

I'm eyeballing the Triumph style with the small round reservoir:
http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1872

There's also a nifty DOT5 tube idea on ChopCult:
http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1285

Not sure I'll go that far with it...
but I definitely want to get rid of the monster box that's on there now.
Anyone have advice on the HOW's and WHY's of this procedure?

Does the reservoir NEED to be that big? Seems not...
I've ridden 6K miles in the last 8 months, and the brake fluid is still pretty much full.

So how do I choose a replacement...
how do I make sure I'm keeping the same pressure needed to run these brakes?

In other words, how would YOU do this mod??

P.S. I'm not adverse to using take-off parts from other bikes (cheap is good)...
for example I think there's some old Yamaha cylinders that are pretty small, gotta find them again tho...
suggestions welcome!!

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
Reply #1 - 10/13/12 at 20:34:24

I dunno if Id admit to anyone I was riding a bike equipped with Chump bars.. but hey, man,, if you can handle it,,

Well,, wouldya just looka there? The I is right next to the U,, Hmm,, He mita been aimin at Chimp,,,, ohh, but wheres the fun in that?

Smaller MC? If the reservoir isnt big enough to displace the piston thru the life of the pads & you dont refill it, you could run into a braking problem, If you Do manage to keep the reservoir filled to a safe level, then when its time for pads & you crush the piston back into the housing, youll overflow the reservoir, so, youll need to add thru the life of the pads & remove fluid when its time for pads. Aside from that, the piston size, lever mechanical advantage may deliver a different "feel".
Smaller piston ( in the MC)would deliver a lighter lever feel & still deliver good braking.. Could be a good thing,

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blackhalo

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Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
Reply #2 - 10/13/12 at 21:05:48

Hehe, yeah... Lowbrow Customs calls them Chumps (8" apes), I woulda called them Chimps...
but y'know those vintage chopper builders are all hopped up on the dust! Wink

So I've been reading a bit about master cylinder "hydraulic advantage" and other such math-like things...
(seems the sport bike crowd are actually good for something after all)... they take it to a whole other level of charting and ratios.

Yet, it seems to me... all I need to do is make sure the ratio is the same (and consider the dangers of not refilling on time).

If you take a look at that ChopCult link, those dudes are running 500lb+ Harleys with nothing but a drop of fluid in a tube...
quite a few say they've run that way for years without a refill.

So maybe the "clear tube" method is a good idea after all...
keep a close eye, so there's no accidental toboggan rides!!

Still curious what else I might be missing (thx Justin, good advice btw)...
maybe some suggestions on direct replacements for the master cylinder (off other bikes)?

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CalisOsin Senior Member Offline Rather die, than live down on my knees. Posts: 297 Orange County, Ca Gender:	Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder? Reply #3 - 10/13/12 at 22:45:12 I can be a little lazy, so if you do the research and find out the parts needed, let us know!
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ToesNose Serious Thumper Offline Pardon me, do you have Hot Sauce? Posts: 1993 Mooresville, NC Gender:	Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder? Reply #4 - 10/14/12 at 03:23:55 I think it's Cavi Mike who has a cool looking master cylinder, sorry I couldn't locate the pic to verify
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blackhalo

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Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
Reply #5 - 10/14/12 at 07:25:00

ToesNose wrote on 10/14/12 at 03:23:55:

I think it's Cavi Mike who has a cool looking master cylinder, sorry I couldn't locate the pic to verify Huh

Thanks TN...
typed his name into Google images and found pics,
which led me to this thread:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1343961685/13

I'll hit him up and see what he has to say about it.

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Cavi Mike

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Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
Reply #6 - 10/14/12 at 14:22:57

http://www.chopcult.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1285

That tube doesn't make any sense and I'm not sure what this guy thinks it has to do with rain. As your brake pads wear, the piston moves farther out of the caliper and this pulls more fluid from the system. The reservoir not only provides this extra fluid but it also has diaphragm that prevents vacuum from pulling that fluid back into the reservoir. Without that diaphragm, eventually so much vacuum will build up that it will start pulling the piston back into the caliper or possibly even prevent the brake lever from returning. Either way, your brake's engagement point will get closer and closer to the handlebar until you have no more motion left and you will be left with no front brake.

Most likely this guy isn't going to have any idea what is happening and he'll think it couldn't possibly have anything to do with his "brilliant" idea. He seems to think the biggest problem with this setup is going to be piston diameter. I've also found most of the guys on that forum to be of a much lower average intelligence than any other bike forum I've been on.

You need a proper reservoir and stop worrying about piston diameter. The bike is a cruiser with a single front disc. If you are worried about how much control you have while doing stoppies, you need a different bike.

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verslagen1

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Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
Reply #7 - 10/14/12 at 15:43:25

Quote:

The threaded bolt will allow any fluid or air to escape under pressure while keeping water out of your master cylinder.

Seems like that's just a long tiny air bleed line.

They use a clear tube to keep an eye on the level, cause you'll need to refill as the pads wear.

matching up the replacement m/c piston size with the stock one keeps the mechanical advantage the same. A practice I would highly advise.

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Scott_H Full Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 130 Escondido, CA Gender:	Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder? Reply #8 - 10/15/12 at 08:56:44 I'm running this one with no issues so far. I had to tweak it a bit to fit on the 1" bars. It's smaller than the stock one and set at a 45* angle which I found different/cool. -Scott http://www.mikesxs.net/product/08-4005.html
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blackhalo

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Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
Reply #9 - 10/15/12 at 22:50:23

Right on Scott, that's actually the site I was looking at a while ago (thx for that!)...
I dig those, and I think there's a few more decent options on there, have to dig around.

For those interested, this was a good article explaining how things work:
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56704

So basically, it's not the size of the reservoir that matters (as much)...
the critical part is the size of the master cylinder vs the calipers (piston ratio / pressure)...
extreme mis-matching can result in soft brakes, or a 'wooden' on/off response.

I haven't had a moment to eyeball the calipers with a flashlight yet...
anyone know off-hand what the size is / where the stamp is?
I'll post it tomorrow once I find.

Bars are ordered!

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Serowbot YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline OK.... so what's the speed of dark? Posts: 28649 Tucson Az Gender:	Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder? Reply #10 - 10/15/12 at 23:03:11 Some things we want bigger,.. some smaller... If the bigger things were smaller,... and the smaller things were bigger... We'd still want.... ... Go ask Alice...
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Cavi Mike

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Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder?
Reply #11 - 10/15/12 at 23:11:51

blackhalo wrote on 10/15/12 at 22:50:23:

For those interested, this was a good article explaining how things work:
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56704

That's pretty funny - quoting a stunting forum. I seem to remember someone mentioning you've bought the wrong bike if you're that concerned about brake feel...

Cavi Mike wrote on 10/14/12 at 14:22:57:

...stop worrying about piston diameter. The bike is a cruiser with a single front disc. If you are worried about how much control you have while doing stoppies, you need a different bike.

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blackhalo Junior Member Offline Pure Unadulterated Radness! Posts: 62 Bradenton, FL	Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder? Reply #12 - 10/17/12 at 08:12:40 @CaviMike: I'm not concerned about "brake feel"... I'm concerned about paying $150 for a new Master Cylinder that locks my front wheel up every time I pull the trigger. You should read that link.
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28884 L.A. California Gender:	Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder? Reply #13 - 10/17/12 at 09:00:26 I'd be worried about brake feel if it were on or off like the rear brake.
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J C Stokes Full Member Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 159	Re: Clean up bars... smaller master cylinder? Reply #14 - 10/17/12 at 18:34:01 Black Halo, go to the latest post about restoring wheels and look at the photo of the Savage with dual front discs. There is a link to the photo. The reservoir is not stock so the cylinder must be somewhere else. It would be interesting to see if you could make contact with the bikes owner.
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