SuzukiSavage.com - Oil Weight?

Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12671 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #15 - 05/26/12 at 09:40:40 JOG (the presiding judge of the KK) is here now, so the rest of the Kourt will be along directly) Fire away, Gridley -- 3 free shots with no rebuttal from me (newbie's advantage)
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Dave YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 18098 Camp Springs, Kentucky Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #16 - 05/26/12 at 10:05:28 There are only 2 kinds of oil, Good Oil....and Bad Oil. I use the good oil!
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Re: Oil Weight?
Reply #17 - 05/26/12 at 10:18:50

OK Oldfeller, I'm gonna step in it, ummm, the trap, I mean... Wink

While I am an engineer, I am not a chemist or lubrication engineer. My 2009 S40 owners manual and shop manual both recommend oil with SAE 10W-40 and API SF/SG or SH/SJ ratings. Since I must presume Suzuki engineers have a wealth of knowledge that far exceeds my own, I will stick with their recommendation.

There is an old saying among bass fishermen... "most lures are designed to catch fishermen, not fish". Make sure you understand the difference between manufacturer marketing hype and honest scientific analysis.

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rfw2003 Serious Thumper Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 1108 Yantis, TX	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #18 - 05/26/12 at 10:36:57 At the recommendations here and also the local cycle shops I just picked up Rotella T6 to use in my new to me 96' Savage
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Wake51

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Re: Oil Weight?
Reply #19 - 05/26/12 at 11:37:38

I'm just curious to know if some truly believe owners are headed down a road of engine destruction based on small differences in oil selection... Undecided

None the less my posted pic was not meant to be a throw it in the face end all/be all oil recommendation, it was posted as a tool to help guide a rider to a jug of affordable and reliable oil, just as I was guided to it when I showed up here.

Savage riders aren't the only ones to come across Rotella. As Oldfeller pointed out, the Motorcycle rating is printed right on the bottle.

Here is an analysis of Rotella T 15W-40 from Sportster users. The analysis itself isn't really useful to Savage owners, but demonstrates other communities find it as a satisfactory lubricant for their scoots. And you know how fickle those HD guys can be... Kiss

http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=66429&highlight=rotella+a...

In the end, just make sure you run SOME oil. An oil war thread on here is always better than a break down story in the Cafe. ...unless said break down happened in front of a topless bar with cold ones on special. But we could only hope to be so lucky.

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Re: Oil Weight?
Reply #20 - 05/26/12 at 11:47:47

360k+ wrote on 05/26/12 at 10:18:50:

OK Oldfeller, I'm gonna step in it, ummm, the trap, I mean... Wink

While I am an engineer, I am not a chemist or lubrication engineer. My 2009 S40 owners manual and shop manual both recommend oil with SAE 10W-40 and API SF/SG or SH/SJ ratings. Since I must presume Suzuki engineers have a wealth of knowledge that far exceeds my own, I will stick with their recommendation.

There is an old saying among bass fishermen... "most lures are designed to catch fishermen, not fish". Make sure you understand the difference between manufacturer marketing hype and honest scientific analysis.

OK, I'll very gently close the steel jaws of the trap for you. The 15-20 year old SF/SG/SH oil specs specified a high detergent oil with around 1,000-1200 PPM of ZDDP which is what is needed to keep the flat tappets and cam healthy in a Savage engine. The valve train in this engine was designed around this sort of oil as it was STANDARD back then.

Problem is, you can't find very many modern car oils with the requisite ZDDP any more as we are all the way up to SN specs now (which state ZDDP will be around 600 PPM).

Modern bike oils are dropping ZDDP levels too, since there ARE bikes out there with catalytic converters in them now (BMW, various touring bikes).

So, how do you manage to honor your manufacturer's oil requirement with a JASO MA MA2 wet clutch motorcycle certified product that DOES meet the old SF/SG/SH oil specs?

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Built2Last Serious Thumper Offline Tempt Fate Posts: 1447 FTF Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #21 - 05/26/12 at 12:01:30 I use WWJU (What Would Jesus Use) when deciding what type of oil to get... I also use this method when deciding what type of beer to get
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aintright YaBB Newbies Offline SuzukiSavage.com Rocks! Posts: 34 eerie, pa Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #22 - 05/26/12 at 12:36:36 Built2Last wrote on 05/26/12 at 12:01:30: I use WWJU (What Would Jesus Use) when deciding what type of oil to get... I also use this method when deciding what type of beer to get i tried this method for awhile, but the olive oil didn't hold up too well and he kept wanting me to drink wine, not beer.
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Starlifter Serious Thumper Offline It only snows seven months of the year here. Posts: 3746 Eastern Michigan Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #23 - 05/26/12 at 13:57:49 What about semi-synthetic motorcycle oil? I see it advertised...any advantages to this blend?
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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12671 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #24 - 05/26/12 at 15:01:30 To be honest I never thought about it. They charge more per quart for most semi-syns than Rotella T6 costs, and T6 is a full synthetic with JASO MA MA2 rating and a big history of being heat proof and long lasting. Why pay more for something that is less in every way you can think of?
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Cavi Mike Serious Thumper Offline Thumper n00b Posts: 1005 Rochester, NY Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #25 - 05/26/12 at 15:02:17 Uno-Lung wrote on 05/26/12 at 07:25:43: Olive oil
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Re: War & Peace
Reply #26 - 05/26/12 at 15:14:53

Free shot #1

Scorched earth and coked bearings, hey?

Let me address your first red letter volley.

Agreed -- but 5 points on starting weight isn't very much difference.

You yourself must agreed using T6 5W40 – it’s a big difference. 10 points, but who’s counting?

Second red letter volley

Actually, it stands for Triple Protection.

According to the Shell link – Shell Rotella T motor oil with Triple Protection Technology is our most significant advancement in heavy-duty motor oil in 30 years. Funny that it was called “T” for 30 years and then came up with TPT just lately for it to stand for T. Next thing you know, instead of nitrogen they will be putting skittles in their gas – it’s sucker bait, my friend.

Third red letter volley

Share some source material with us that says an oil molecule (no matter how bunched up you want to make it) cannot fit into the oil film clearance in even the tightest manufactured engine. Here's my source that says otherwise.

While I never said that they can’t fit, they will end up starving the film longer at startup, and by your link it proves that their size is measurable. They wouldn’t work as intended and end up as something thicker than 15-40.
tldr: Cold thick oil pumps slower than thin oil.

Fourth red letter volley

Actually, it says JASO MA MA2 approved motorcycle oil right on the bottle.

Sorry, that bottle and product in the picture does not say that. Actually, Shell’s site says
API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CF, SM,
SL, SJ, SH; ACEA E9, E7; JASO DH-2, MA;
Caterpillar ECF-1A, ECF-2, ECF-3; Cummins
CES 20081; DDC 93K218; Deutz DQC
III-05; MACK EO-O Premium Plus; Ford
WSS-M2C171-E; MAN 3275; MB Approval
228.31; MTU Category 2; Renault Trucks
RLD-3; Volvo VDS-4

http://www-static.shell.com/static/can-en/downloads/products_services/lubrica...

So, here go the torpedoes

Shell Rotella T is not the same as Shell Rotella T6. It seems to me that all Rotellers seem to think that us newbies that are looking for answers know that fact. Most don’t. Please refrain from calling the product Rotella T. Please call it Rotella T6. It’s a wonderful oil for the Savage. But when it comes to these bikes, I think JOG’s ninty thousand mile Walmart worker’s bike says it all and his thinking on the subject show something. Any oil is better than no oil, and if you change it often like my first sentence in my first post -- it will last a long time. Buying expensive T6 and extending the drain interval is a crap shoot. Contamination is our biggest adversary to long life. Change oil often and use what the manufacture recommends, 10w40 motorcycle oil.

Egad, Oldfeller posted a picture of the wrong product propagating the ignorance of the fine product T6.

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« Last Edit: 05/26/12 at 17:50:10 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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Cavi Mike Serious Thumper Offline Thumper n00b Posts: 1005 Rochester, NY Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #27 - 05/26/12 at 16:51:28 Free shot #2 Not to put down T6 or any of the knowledge you've shared but everything I've read about Rotella T* oils is that they are for diesel engines. Diesel is a much different fuel than gasoline. It makes me wonder if what's so great about it for use on diesel engines matters not on a petrol engine.
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Cavi Mike Serious Thumper Offline Thumper n00b Posts: 1005 Rochester, NY Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #28 - 05/26/12 at 17:14:29 Free shot #3 all done now And for the record, there isn't a single Shell oil that meets the proper JASO certs for motorbikes. At least not at the time of this filing: http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf
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Blinky-FSO Serious Thumper Offline Three Eyes Are Better Than Two Posts: 528 Kentucky Gender:	Re: Oil Weight? Reply #29 - 05/26/12 at 17:30:55 Man the walls and secure the gate. The Oil Wars continue. Now, what shall we use for the boiling oil? To heck with it. Just throw rocks.
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