SuzukiSavage.com - The Great Experiment approaches testing phase ....

Oldfeller--FSO

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The Great Experiment approaches testing phase ....
02/01/11 at 10:29:39

This was a pretty much totally trashed motor that was donated by Serenity for the Great Experiment -- the development of recovery methods for head death and the other results of low oil pressure.

As you can see, we are some valve covers and a rubber plug shy of starting the testing phase of the Great Experiment. We have a pair of list members who say they have these parts and they are looking through their boxes right now to locate the pesky little pieces. (no luck yet so far though)

So far the totally trashed motor has required expenditure for a used jug and piston, a used cam, a used starter motor and the missing valve covers and rubber plug. Everything else was repaired (the methods developed are in the Tech Section as "how to" threads, with the exception of the Inelegant Stick cam re-tensioning system which is a Rubber Side Down experiment in motion that will require years to prove it out properly).

The ability to REPAIR a trashed motor instead of scrapping and replacing it is of some value to list members (the head cam bearing fix alone is priceless as we have so many dead heads running around it hurts to think about it). Keep your idle speed up over 1,000 rpm at all times !!

As soon as we get ahold of the rubber plug and the valve covers, the unit completes assembly and once it is cured good the oil goes in and the starter based static testing begins.

Test planned:

1) Compression Test at starter speeds

2) First push through oil volume through the oiling system will be captured to see what sort of trash circulates in the oil passages when a rebuild is done. (curious, I am)

3) Oil pressure at the last head cam bearing will be measured at starter speeds.

4) some other stuff as the thoughts occur to me ....

Still needed: a used set of valve covers and a used rubber plug.

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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 5873 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #1 - 02/01/11 at 16:06:37 a magnetic oil drain plug
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Oldfeller--FSO Serious Thumper ModSquad Offline Hobby is now "concentrated neuropany" Posts: 12647 Fayetteville, NC Gender:	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #2 - 02/01/11 at 16:29:05 Got a smaller thinner lighter rare earth magnet already on the oil filter -- iron filings trapping duty is already covered. Have to trust the filter to stop all the sawdust though ....
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drums1 Serious Thumper Offline '87 Savage Bashed--Down for the count Posts: 664 Racine, Wisconsin Gender:	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #3 - 02/01/11 at 17:58:39 What a unique colour you chose to paint the beast !
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MotoBuddha Serious Thumper Offline Let's roll! Posts: 1416 Charlotte, NC	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #4 - 02/01/11 at 18:01:04 Naw, that's just silver with the camera white balance not set for incandescent light.
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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Reply #5 - 02/01/11 at 21:08:30

That is the original faded silver paint cleaned with brake parts cleaner (acetone) which got it clean but dulled it some. It isn't painted at all by me, no paint at all except as it was done on the assembly line.

This is the spare engine, the one you slide in place when you blow the good one up and have a major rebuild coming up because you got stupid.

It keeps the frame rolling while you fiddle around with the good pieces ....

Why? Was it supposed to be pretty?

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« Last Edit: 02/02/11 at 02:48:33 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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justin_o_guy2

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Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Reply #6 - 02/02/11 at 08:28:52

Doesnt seem like a good investment of time to doll something up thats not yet proven. Sure would hurt to have all that labor tied up in a pile O junk. Even IF it proves to run as intended, the longevity is still in doubt, since it is an experiment in repair techniques. I think its appropriate to leave some things kinda on the ugly side. I know that when I find rust on the backhoe, I just scrape & treat with Ospho & throw some p[aint on it. Wrong shade of yellow? Who cares!? The doghouse isnt even all the same color, some is green, some is purple & theres more than one shade of purple, I dont care, as long as it doesnt rot, its the doghouse & theyre safe & warm. It IShowever under a tin roof, has an elevated floor, its insulated on all sides, regardless of how it looks, its the best doghouse Ive seen, outside of the Jim & Tammy Faye Baker fame. IOW, I cant allow my fear of someone elses possibly negative opinion of what I am working on to dictate to me how I do it. I am doin the living here, & Im not gonna let antyone tell me how to do that, unless of course,that someone can promise me that when its my time to die, theyre willing to do that part for me too. So far, no takers..
just talkers

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MotoBuddha Serious Thumper Offline Let's roll! Posts: 1416 Charlotte, NC	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #7 - 02/02/11 at 09:13:13 As long as we're talking oil related issues here, do you think there would be any advantages or disadvantages to a remote filter backing up the standard filter?
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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28847 L.A. California Gender:	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #8 - 02/02/11 at 09:47:20 The disadvantage is the resultant drop in oil pressure.
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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Reply #9 - 02/02/11 at 09:49:38

Both Verslagen and I checked into the remote filtration idea very throughly. I actually went and built one and Verslagen went and found a really cunning filtration unit for an oil fired home furnace (filter the #2 fuel oil for particulates and lumps) that even I said I should have bought instead of building one (I built mine before Verslagen located the commercial unit).

However, no secondary oil filters are installed on any bike. Why?

No significant spare oil flow volume or spare/excess oil pressure exists on a Savage unless running just about wide full open.

Our bikes die from lack of oil pressure way down low towards idle speeds. Our head cam bearings die because people like them rumpy-rump idle speeds and think it sounds wicked to BAP BAP BAP a strong throttle hit just off those nice low idle speeds.

Hell, I think it sounds wicked -- but I know it is about the worst thing you can do to your bike's plain aluminum head bearings.

I've got a Frankie Jr. bike that is set up to rev and make power up high. That's my playtoy engine. This one is carefully sealed up to make as much oil pressure as possible in an old severely used engine.

And this one is a pretty old engine at 56,000 miles and two oil pressure related death incidences behind it. To get it to pull good compression and good oil pressure around idle will be feat enough for this boy.

And if it lasted a nice goodly long while, well now wouldn't that be some nice cold vanilla ice cream sitting on your bowl of cherry cobbler?

======================

It would be plumb miraculous if ALL the major repair methods being tested on this engine worked out as long life perfect on the very first try ....

1) Refitting the damaged cam journal bearings to very close clearance tolerances by flat sanding the head cover

2) Adding an oil pressure gage check point at the last bearing journal drop (the bearing journal that fails all the time)

3) Rebuilding and reusing the old head gasket

4) Reusing the old chain and guides

5) Inelegant Stick cam chain retensioning method (second life at $2 cost)

6) Identified and fixed oil system low pressure issues:

"Mismated oil pump gears" due to reversal of clutch drive gear
(moves out of engagement while running down the road).

"Rabbit hole pin" -- the little pin on the oil pump clutch gear falls
out during clutch work (and since it is behind the clutch basket did you even
know it was there before it fell out and went down the rabbit hole to the sump?)

7) Templates, materials and methods to correctly make your own clutch side cover gasket
(includes use of a plain Silicone Gasket since the stuff got good enough to do the job)

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« Last Edit: 02/11/11 at 10:25:50 by Oldfeller--FSO »

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MotoBuddha Serious Thumper Offline Let's roll! Posts: 1416 Charlotte, NC	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #10 - 02/02/11 at 10:33:21 If your experimentation confirms inadequate oil pressure at the last head cam bearing, what (besides keeping the idle above 1k rpm) do you imagine would be a proper solution?
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Oldfeller--FSO

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Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Reply #11 - 02/02/11 at 11:13:37

Drill and tap a fitting into the top oil gallery that is contained inside the side cover (first location that is post oil filter) and run a separate oil line up to the oil pressure sensing port that I just added to the head so I could see just how low the pressure is at idle speeds. There is an existing boss and plug on the clutch side cover that would be a likely candidate for a source point just to the right of the 652cm3 marking on the base of the jug.

So I would tap post filter full pressure oil flow and supply it directly to the weakest bearing journal through a relatively "larger" more direct copper tubing supply line.

Remember, this problematical last head bearing journal location is after the pressure tap out for the crank shaft and piston spray oil flow, after the pressure tap out for the transmission oil flow, after all the convoluted long passages in the barrel and the head, and after the pressure tap out for the cam end bearing and the oil flow through the center of the cam itself (oils the tappets). It is sucking hind tit big-time.

It is at the tail end of everything and likely is getting just about nothing for oil pressure at idle speeds. But nobody has ever actually measured this yet to say this is a fact or not ....

(still waiting for them 2 cam covers and a rubber plug, guys)

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RidgeRunner13

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Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Reply #12 - 02/02/11 at 12:35:15

Back in the mid '80's I worked on a boat that had twin turboed chev 350's for power. The turbo system was built by some outfit in Kansas that apparently hadn't planned on them being used in a salt water boat.
One of the problems was with the turbo bearings. I solved it by plumbing a 30 psi electric fuel pump that drew oil from a fitting on the oil pan & pumped it through the turboes as long as you wanted it to. I wanted to put them on a timer but the owner just wanted a button to hold down.He would use them for about 2 minutes after engine shut down to keep oil circulating & it cured the bearing problem. Cool

Point is, You could boost oil pressure with an electric pump that would run all the time, & even be used to create oil pressure before starting.
Wonder how much that would cut down on wear???

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T Mack 1 - FSO

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Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase
Reply #13 - 02/02/11 at 13:45:22

Oldfeller,
When you first go to turn it over, remove the spark plug (to reduce load) and then remove the head bolt that is in the head oil passage. Then when you crank the engine, make sure oil comes out the hole.

It will take a bunch of turns to get there. And, once it comes out, it may shoot a foot or two in the air. Oh, yea, wear safety glasses.

T Mack

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verslagen1 YaBB Moderator ModSquad Offline Where there's a will, I want to be in it. Posts: 28847 L.A. California Gender:	Re: The Great Experiment approaches testing phase Reply #14 - 02/02/11 at 21:58:55 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SUZUKI-SAVAGE-LS-650-CYLINDER-HEAD-BOLTS-VALVE...
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