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wont start, different issue (Read 778 times)
greenmonster
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wont start, different issue
12/04/10 at 18:14:09
 
Okay, so I've got an 86 savage. I love the girl but I'm getting ready to put a bullet into one of us.

In the last couple months I've replaced the voltage regulator because the battery was barely seeing a voltage differential when I had the bike rev'd way higher than I would normally put it while riding. That got it some better but I think that I'd done too much damage to the battery from flat lining it too many times.

I still wasn't seeing as much juice after having swapped the regulator as I had expected so I retested the magneto, the readings that I got were 107, 104, and 98. I know that the Clymer says that they should all be over 100 but I figured that 98 wasn't that far under and that it was probably just a bad wire... I learned better.

I week or two after this I had some moron cab driver bolt out in front of me and I slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting him. I don't know exactly why but the bike stalled and when I went to start it again, still rolling, I got some absolutely horrible sounds. Like grinding gears. I pulled over and she wouldn't start, just gave me a free spinning sound when I hit the starter. I managed to run start her to get home but she hasn't started since.

Since the starter engages I knew it wasn't that so I pulled off the left side of the crankcase to reveal a wonderful collection of missing teeth on the starter driven sprocket. I shouldn't actually call them missing, I found them all deposited either stuck to the rotor or else sitting in the bottom of the crankcase. The inside of the rotor is marred and the stator is definately on its last legs. Since I've accounted for all the teeth I'm not worried about chunks of metal circulating through guts of my bike.
I've replaced the damaged gear and put the old girl back together again. Put in a brand new battery and had the hopes of going for a quick ride in the cool sunlight today.

I hit the starter button and it spun a couple times (I'm pretty sure that I heard a chuff but that could have been wishful thinking) before it stopped. And by stopped I mean, ther is no engine noise, I hear the decompression switch and the starter solinoid go and then the headlight dims and the neutral light fades almost out.

I've pulled the starter again, thinking that perhaps that could be the culprit. It fires over nicely.
I tried to run start it but as soon as I let the clutch out the back tire locks up.
I know that I'm missing something, or that I must have put something back together improperly but I can't see it cause I'm too close to the issue.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I know you guys have a wealth of information because I've solved a lot of other issues just from watching the forum and searching before.

Thanks in advance.
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Serowbot
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #1 - 12/04/10 at 18:32:54
 
Make sure that the decomp is actually pulling the lever enough to raise the valve?....
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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Routy
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #2 - 12/05/10 at 06:45:22
 
Others could tell you better, but seems like a push start could be very tricky because you'd have to hit the starter button at precisely the exact second that you dump the clutch, so that the compression is released on the very first revolution ?? At any rate, sounds like a compression release problem,.......not speaking of your charging problem.
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verslagen1
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #3 - 12/05/10 at 09:34:12
 
If the neutral light is going out, then it's the battery and you'll never get it started.  Voltage to the CDI has to be at least 10 v or it won't fire.

There are several ways to do a push start.  I do a starter aided push start.  This procedure is for a stock bike with all of the safeties working.  The starter will cut out anytime the clutch is released.  We are going to use that to our advantage to get the decomp activated, and the engine rotating before we let out the clutch and letting the bikes motion take over the turning of the engine to start it.

1. Prep the bike as usual to start.
2. Put it in 1st gear, remember this is starter aided.
3. Run it up to as fast as you can go, I'm old and gimpy so don't give me any sh!t about it's too hard.
4. Hop on, push the starter button as it start to turn the engine over release the clutch.  It will chug a couple of times as the battery recovers from the starter drain then it will fire up.

In 1st gear at about 5mph give or take a few, the starter will turn the engine at about the same speed.
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verslagen1
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #4 - 12/05/10 at 09:40:27
 
Busted teeth issue, this is a common problem with the pre'90's bikes but never with the later bikes.  Why, cause they added a torque limiter to the gear train.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1288911670
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #5 - 12/05/10 at 09:56:31
 
Yea, I would make sure the battery isn't the problem. It may be "brand new" but if it's been sitting on the shelf a long time, it needs to be charged. Hook it up to your car battery and if it doesn't start, you know the battery isn't the problem. OR just charge your new battery until it stops drawing current from the charger.
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greenmonster
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #6 - 12/05/10 at 17:10:47
 
I'm pretty sure it's not the battery. When I said brand new I meant, I put the acid in myself and charged it for the day before I tried anything.

I'm going to go try verslagen1's push assisted start. Though I'm not sure how well it will work since the tire locked up when I tried doing a run start with it before, and the starter doesn't seem to be doing anything. But I'm a long way from flat out refusing to try something.
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verslagen1
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #7 - 12/05/10 at 17:23:53
 
brand new bad batteries aren't rare.
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greenmonster
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #8 - 12/05/10 at 17:29:14
 
So, I've tried the push start. When I push the starter it behaves the same as sitting still, dims the lights. When I let the clutch out in 1st and 2nd gear it locks up the back tire and that's the end of it. I know I was going fast enough to start it if it were just the battery because I've had to do that several times before.
Tried it in 3rd and 4th, with expected results. Nothing happened electrically other than the lights dimming. The only real difference was that the wheel didn't lock just slowed me quickly.

I took some readings on the battery just so that we could get that out of the way as an issue. 12.6V that dropped to 12 when I turned the ignition switch into the on position. This dropped to about 6 when I pushed the starter. Then returned when I stopped pushing the starter.

There's no way that I could have messed up the timing while replacing the starter sprocket is there?
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verslagen1
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #9 - 12/05/10 at 17:56:37
 
I don't think it's possible to mess up the timing unless you've mixed pre 90 and post 90 parts.

If it's locking up in all gears and with the starter, I suspect the decomp adjustment or if it's working at all.  other possibility is a short.  You can operate the lever manually although it is hard.

Other possibility but you've kinda ruled it out.  There's a washer that likes to get on the wrong shaft when you put the stator cover back on.  this will jamb up the starter.
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OK.... so what's the
speed of dark?

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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #10 - 12/05/10 at 17:57:31
 
Pull the spark plug,.. and see how it cranks...
If'n it cranks good like that, look into the decomp system...
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Max_Morley
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #11 - 12/05/10 at 17:57:44
 
If the battery goes to 6 V when you push the starter you have either; 1- a bad battery or 2- a dead short to ground when the starter circuit is engaged. Neither is good. The starter itself it a dead short or almost until it starts spinning and creating counter emf (voltage) which limits the speed and current flow. If it isn't spinning then you have a problem still, seems like one of the gears can easily be installed inverted in the starter gear train, I know from experience. Do you have Greg's Savage CD as the directions and pictures are on that? OE Manual may show it also. Max
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #12 - 12/05/10 at 18:01:52
 
Wow, if voltage is dropping to 6, you either have a dead battery, or a bad battery, or a starter motor w/ a dead short, or an engine or starter that is froze or locked up.
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Rich
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greenmonster
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #13 - 12/05/10 at 18:34:04
 
I'm going to pull the plug to see if it'll crank, tomorrow after work. It's dark now and I don't want to start pulling stuff apart when I can't see anything.

I pulled the starter to make sure that it wasn't that. Grounded it with a jumper cable and hit the starter. Spins like a charm. I even stuck my finger in there to see if I could spin the gears myself. They spin no problem one way and wont budge the other way.
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justin_o_guy2
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Re: wont start, different issue
Reply #14 - 12/05/10 at 19:50:48
 
You can get an ammeter that simply sits on a wire, no need to open anything up & hook a meter in series. Theyre cheap, or were, bout 30 years ago when I got mine. Seeing the current flow will help, otherwise, Id haul the battery to a store that will test it. Its easy enough for a battery to not hold its voltage under load.
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