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Carb Confusion (Read 611 times)
DrunkenDwarf
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Carb Confusion
07/28/10 at 16:54:08
 
Previous owner had put a 55 pilot in, I finally (2 years later) got around to moving it to a smaller jet.

So, I went from a 55 w/ bleed to a 52.5 w/ bleed and the air screw still wants to be 1 turn out.

I can turn it all the way in and the engine slows, but doesn't die. Still pops on shifts, still a WUMP at shutdown. I did tighten the header bolts, but haven't smoke tested it.

I don't get it. It's as if I've got the exact same jet in there.
Shocked

Today was particularly warm, perhaps that's having an impact.

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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LANCER
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #1 - 07/28/10 at 16:58:58
 
DrunkenDwarf wrote on 07/28/10 at 16:54:08:
Previous owner had put a 55 pilot in, I finally (2 years later) got around to moving it to a smaller jet.

So, I went from a 55 w/ bleed to a 52.5 w/ bleed and the air screw still wants to be 1 turn out.

I can turn it all the way in and the engine slows, but doesn't die. Still pops on shifts, still a WUMP at shutdown. I did tighten the header bolts, but haven't smoke tested it.

I don't get it. It's as if I've got the exact same jet in there.
Shocked

Today was particularly warm, perhaps that's having an impact.

-D. Dwarf



when carb does not respond as it should dispite jet changes = blockages inside passages
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #2 - 07/28/10 at 17:20:09
 
Ugh.
When I dropped the bowl there was a small collection of fine grit. There's no build up that I can tell.

Oh well. I guess I'll have to strip it at the end of the season.

Thanks for the suggestion. Any idea where a blockage might be that would cause that symptom? Could be the air bleed jet (where ever that is)?

Over all it runs pretty well. (Then again, I don't have anything to compare it to.) The spark plug base was a little sooty (see below) and I suspected it was a little on the rich side, that's why I went down a jet size.

-D. Dwarf

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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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verslagen1
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #3 - 07/28/10 at 17:27:51
 
it still gets hot enough to burn all deposits off, so I'd say your main is a tad lean (not knowing how long you spend at full speed) and your idle/choke is rich.
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Serowbot
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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #4 - 07/28/10 at 17:28:09
 
The plug looks okay to me...  
Pops on decel, and wump on shutoff are normal for a big thumper... as long as the big gunshot "Kerpow's!" are rare, I wouldn't worry...
You could try a 52.5 without the bleeds if you want...
You should notice a little boost is MPG's with the smaller pilot... (Goodie, goodie!)...

Mine doesn't die when I shut the pilot out full either,... there are small idle ports still active when you close the pilot completely, so it is possible...
Other Savages I'm worked on do die when you close off the pilot...  Some do,.. some don't...
No worries there...


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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #5 - 07/28/10 at 18:26:57
 
verslagen1 wrote on 07/28/10 at 17:27:51:
it still gets hot enough to burn all deposits off, so I'd say your main is a tad lean (not knowing how long you spend at full speed) and your idle/choke is rich.

Which is why I went down a size on the pilot.

I don't spend much time at full throttle. I hit 80 in forth gear a day or two ago, but I generally ride in the 40-60 mph range.

I really should grow a set and do a WOT plug chop.  Undecided

Serowbot wrote on 07/28/10 at 17:28:09:
The plug looks okay to me...  
Pops on decel, and wump on shutoff are normal for a big thumper... as long as the big gunshot "Kerpow's!" are rare, I wouldn't worry...
You could try a 52.5 without the bleeds if you want...
You should notice a little boost is MPG's with the smaller pilot... (Goodie, goodie!)...

I'm trying to reduce the pops when I shift. It's pretty consistent.

The really weird thing is when the engine is warming up and I still have the choke out, it never pops on a shift. But as soon as I put the choke in, even if the engine isn't warm, pop!

Edited:
One more comment. I'm running 1.5mm spacer because it does this weird surging at 35mph in 3rd gear. It still happens when then engine isn't fully warmed up. I guess it's "lean hunting"? My commute is only 10 miles (20 minutes) so I spend most of my time riding an engine that isn't fully warmed up.


-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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Serowbot
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OK.... so what's the
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #6 - 07/28/10 at 20:14:01
 
A good indicator of overall jetting is the weather...if popping/backfiring increases on humid days, or at higher elevation, that indicates rich....less popping at those times indicates lean.

To test the main, accelerate from 30 or 40 mph, in 4th or 5th gear at full throttle for several seconds, then reduce throttle by about 1/8,...if power increases for a second, you are lean on the main jet.  Go up one jet size and test again.
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #7 - 07/29/10 at 07:09:02
 
Serowbot wrote on 07/28/10 at 20:14:01:
A good indicator of overall jetting is the weather...if popping/backfiring increases on humid days, or at higher elevation, that indicates rich....less popping at those times indicates lean.

I've noticed no correlation between weather and backfiring. It could be because of my proximity to Lake Ontario, it's always humid.

Serowbot wrote on 07/28/10 at 20:14:01:
To test the main, accelerate from 30 or 40 mph, in 4th or 5th gear at full throttle for several seconds, then reduce throttle by about 1/8,...if power increases for a second, you are lean on the main jet.  Go up one jet size and test again.

I've tried this several times last summer, with jets 145, 150, 152.5 and 155. I'll see if I can find my posts from that time period and link to them.

I've never noticed any change when backing off the throttle.
I don't know if I'm doing it wrong (not waiting long enough, waiting too long, backing off to far, not backing off far enough, whatever) or if there's no response or if I'm incompetent.

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #8 - 07/29/10 at 08:34:58
 
Your bike behaves exactly like mine. 145 main and 52.5 pilot. It is just like you rode my bike and wrote about it. Even the plug looks the same. Amazing! I tried a 55 pilot with bleed holes before and it was way too rich. The screw all the way turned in then didn't cut it. I also put a 150 main in and I had surging problems and sooting at full throttle. I tried pulling the choke just a little while riding. That makes all the pops and bangs go away, but accelerating is feeling to rich with ucking and surging. So I assume that is just the way the bike is. I got about the same thickness spacer in there.
Drunken Dwarf can you try something for me?
With the engine warmed up and idling, squeeze the vacuum hose off with your fingers on the u-bend and tell me if the idle seems to rise a bit, and when you let go seems to go back down.
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Serowbot
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OK.... so what's the
speed of dark?

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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #9 - 07/29/10 at 08:49:31
 
ralfyguy wrote on 07/29/10 at 08:34:58:
Drunken Dwarf can you try something for me?
With the engine warmed up and idling, squeeze the vacuum hose off with your fingers on the u-bend and tell me if the idle seems to rise a bit, and when you let go seems to go back down.

...sounds like you got a leaky petcock diaphragm....
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Ludicrous Speed !... ... Huh...
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bill67
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #10 - 07/29/10 at 09:35:00
 
I think if you let of the throttle slower its backfires less.
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william h krumpen
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #11 - 07/29/10 at 12:24:25
 
ralfyguy wrote on 07/29/10 at 08:34:58:
Drunken Dwarf can you try something for me?
With the engine warmed up and idling, squeeze the vacuum hose off with your fingers on the u-bend and tell me if the idle seems to rise a bit, and when you let go seems to go back down.

I'll try to remember to do that tonight.
I've got a spring around the vacuum hose, so we'll see how well I'm able to pinch it off.

-D. Dwarf

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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #12 - 07/29/10 at 18:29:38
 
ralfyguy wrote on 07/29/10 at 08:34:58:
Drunken Dwarf can you try something for me?
With the engine warmed up and idling, squeeze the vacuum hose off with your fingers on the u-bend and tell me if the idle seems to rise a bit, and when you let go seems to go back down.

That's exactly what happened. Quite noticeably, in fact. I wish all carburetor testing was that obvious.

I had the hose off the carb last weekend and didn't notice any gas.
I guess I should try disconnecting the vacuum hose and running on prime.

As soon as I get new brake pads.  Angry

-D. Dwarf
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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #13 - 07/29/10 at 18:40:35
 
It is not said that both of our petcock diaphragms are bad. Maybe this is just the way it is. BTW mine is a '06 S40 with 12,500 miles on it. I was thinking about getting a new petcock, because the lever only turns with brutal force. I disassembled it last weekend, cleaned what wasn't really dirty, lubed everything that moves on it and put it back together with no real improvement. I didn't notice any gas or gas smell either with the hose off. One of these days the lever is gonna break off. Are they all turning that hard? It worsens significantly when the temperature rises above 90F. In the morning around 70F it isn't that bad. Does yours turn that hard?

Oh and for the record: My pilot jet is a stock 52.5 without bleed holes. And the pilot screw is 2 1/4 turns out. This seems to be the sweet spot on mine. I tried more and less and it wasn't quiet right. I always come back to 2 1/4 turns out. However in winter I set it to 2 1/2 turns, as it then runs as smooth as in summer.

Where did you get the 52.5 pilot WITH bleed holes from? Does that mean it may run a bit richer than the same size without holes? I wish I had one to try, as the 55 jet I have is too much.
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DrunkenDwarf
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Re: Carb Confusion
Reply #14 - 07/29/10 at 18:44:08
 
ralfyguy wrote on 07/29/10 at 18:40:35:
Does yours turn that hard?

Yes it does.  Grin

-D. Dwarf

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Pearl White 2007 S40; Dyna exhaust; Current jets: 52.5 w/ bleed (2 turns out) / 1.5mm (0.06") spacer / 150; raptor petcock
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