SuzukiSavage.com - cold weather warm-up blues

longintooth

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cold weather warm-up blues
02/10/10 at 09:47:47

cold weather warm-up blues

Lately I have had a problem warming up my 2005 S40(my first winter with it). I crank it on full choke(ie enricher knob) and then put it back to half choke and let it fast idle for 5 minutes or so while I tog up for a ride...sometimes when it is cold(say 30's F) it fast idles for about 2 minutes then starts to stall with white smoke out the exhaust...won't restart unless I take off choke and crank it with about half throttle...can ride like that but must keep the rpm's up to say third or half throttle...eventually it "warms up" and will run and idle normally.

Today in the low 30's I warmed the carb and fuel switch up with a heater and then took it outside the garage...normal warm up cycle but after riding for about 5 minutes I started to get the "cold day" stalling at low rpms deal. Switched the fuel to PRI and it cleared up right away...went back to ON and soon started stalling again...back to PRI and cleared up.

I take a break halfway thru my hour ride and always have no problems on the ride home. Presumably the engine heat fully warms the fuel switch.

What I think is happening is the vacuum diaphragm is not delivering enough fuel when it is cold(thus starts fine but stalls after the full bowl empties)...then the problem clears up after the cylinder heat eventually warms the fuel diaphragm up...thus runs fine on PRI but not ON until the fuel switch diaphragm is fully warmed up by engine heat.

Anybody else got any ideas on this???...never have this problem on days in the 40's and above.

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Routy

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Re: cold weather warm-up blues
Reply #1 - 02/10/10 at 13:02:23

I had a discussion here a while back w/ someone that had the same problem. I believe it could be an icing problem, which can be taking place inside the intake area of the carb. Next time it does it, feel the carb area for any ice cold condition. You cannot see it, because it is internally icing. I don't know what became of the other episode, but they did acknowledg that icing was possible. I have seen it happen on car engines, usually caused from a heat riser no working properly.

longintooth wrote on 02/10/10 at 09:47:47:

cold weather warm-up blues

Lately I have had a problem warming up my 2005 S40(my first winter with it). I crank it on full choke(ie enricher knob) and then put it back to half choke and let it fast idle for 5 minutes or so while I tog up for a ride...sometimes when it is cold(say 30's F) it fast idles for about 2 minutes then starts to stall with white smoke out the exhaust...won't restart unless I take off choke and crank it with about half throttle...can ride like that but must keep the rpm's up to say third or half throttle...eventually it "warms up" and will run and idle normally.

Today in the low 30's I warmed the carb and fuel switch up with a heater and then took it outside the garage...normal warm up cycle but after riding for about 5 minutes I started to get the "cold day" stalling at low rpms deal. Switched the fuel to PRI and it cleared up right away...went back to ON and soon started stalling again...back to PRI and cleared up.

I take a break halfway thru my hour ride and always have no problems on the ride home. Presumably the engine heat fully warms the fuel switch.

What I think is happening is the vacuum diaphragm is not delivering enough fuel when it is cold(thus starts fine but stalls after the full bowl empties)...then the problem clears up after the cylinder heat eventually warms the fuel diaphragm up...thus runs fine on PRI but not ON until the fuel switch diaphragm is fully warmed up by engine heat.

Anybody else got any ideas on this???...never have this problem on days in the 40's and above.

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Rich
'07 S40 Blvd stocker, except drilled OEM exhaust and white spacer mod...1/2 (.055)

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Digger Serious Thumper 2005 No Login Offline Ya gotta be tough to ride singles! Posts: 1604 Colorado Springs, CO Gender:	Re: cold weather warm-up blues Reply #2 - 02/10/10 at 20:09:23 Had a similar cool weather problem: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1152108113/0 IHTH!
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Yonuh Adisi FSO

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Re: cold weather warm-up blues
Reply #3 - 02/10/10 at 20:44:25

longintooth wrote on 02/10/10 at 09:47:47:

cold weather warm-up blues

Lately I have had a problem warming up my 2005 S40(my first winter with it). I crank it on full choke(ie enricher knob) and then put it back to half choke and let it fast idle for 5 minutes or so while I tog up for a ride...sometimes when it is cold(say 30's F) it fast idles for about 2 minutes then starts to stall with white smoke out the exhaust...won't restart unless I take off choke and crank it with about half throttle...can ride like that but must keep the rpm's up to say third or half throttle...eventually it "warms up" and will run and idle normally.

Today in the low 30's I warmed the carb and fuel switch up with a heater and then took it outside the garage...normal warm up cycle but after riding for about 5 minutes I started to get the "cold day" stalling at low rpms deal. Switched the fuel to PRI and it cleared up right away...went back to ON and soon started stalling again...back to PRI and cleared up.

I take a break halfway thru my hour ride and always have no problems on the ride home. Presumably the engine heat fully warms the fuel switch.

What I think is happening is the vacuum diaphragm is not delivering enough fuel when it is cold(thus starts fine but stalls after the full bowl empties)...then the problem clears up after the cylinder heat eventually warms the fuel diaphragm up...thus runs fine on PRI but not ON until the fuel switch diaphragm is fully warmed up by engine heat.

Anybody else got any ideas on this???...never have this problem on days in the 40's and above.

It sounds like you pretty much have it figured out why it does it. The white smoke you refer to sounds a lot like moisture which to me would be indicative of an icing problem. (the ice melting and going through the combustion chamber causing the stalling and out the pipe.)

But don't quote me on that for I am no where near to being a carb guru.

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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 6059 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: cold weather warm-up blues Reply #4 - 02/11/10 at 08:50:47 a carb is like and ac condensing unit put some HEET in your fuel
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Charon

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Re: cold weather warm-up blues
Reply #5 - 02/11/10 at 12:52:45

HEET is simply methanol. If the gasoline you buy has ethanol in it, HEET is unnecessary.

Your white "smoke" is water vapor condensing in the cold outside air. When you burn gasoline, a byproduct is water. Burning a gallon of gasoline results in over a gallon of water. When the engine first starts, the water condenses in the cylinder. Some of it makes its way into the engine oil. As the engine warms the condensation moves out into the exhaust pipe, and as the pipe warms it moves out into the atmosphere. This is why you don't see the "steam" until a little after your startup. If you ever noticed the water dribbling out of the exhaust pipe on a car, now you know where the water comes from. This is also why it isn't a very good idea to start the engine for just a few minutes "to keep the battery charged." Especially in cold weather, when you start the engine, you want to run it long enough and hard enough to get it, its oil, and the exhaust system completely warmed up. Water absorbs carbon dioxide (the other main byproduct of burning gasoline) to form carbonic acid. This water/carbonic acid mix helps cause corrosion in the engine and rust in the exhaust pipe, and neatly explains why exhaust pipes rust out from the inside.

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Eschew obfuscation.

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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: cold weather warm-up blues Reply #6 - 02/11/10 at 15:23:07 SeaFoam will take the moisture out of your gas tank.
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Charon Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 1811 Harvard, NE Gender:	Re: cold weather warm-up blues Reply #7 - 02/11/10 at 15:39:45 The only thing in Sea Foam that will help remove moisture is isopropyl alcohol. And there isn't much of it there. Once again, if the gasoline you buy contains ethanol, you do not need any more moisture removing additives.
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bill67 Serious Thumper Offline old tired Posts: 8517 genoa city wisconsin Gender:	Re: cold weather warm-up blues Reply #8 - 02/11/10 at 18:32:02 Its more important in cold weather to use Sea Foam than in warm weather I use it year round.
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Bubba

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Re: cold weather warm-up blues
Reply #9 - 03/03/10 at 07:44:19

Back again with the same problem. Haven't ridden the the cold for a while (actually haven't ridden in a while!...snow and all). Anyway, it was about 28 when I left this morning. Let it warm up a good long time(10 minutes?) before I took off, got about 4 miles (wind chill was COLD) then she started stumbling again and had to wind her up at stop lights just to keep from dying. Pulled over, turn her off and let it sit for about 5 minutes, felt the carb, cold but not freezing.
Fired her up again and she ran fine all the way to work. I don't know that it's icing but could someone explain which vac line I'm supposed to seal if I want to test the petcock on Prime?
She only runs this way when it's below freezing. Haven't rejetted yet BTW
Thanks

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'06 lt Blue, Dyna Power pipe, air screw 2 1/4 turns, 52.5 pilot w/ bleed holes, 150 Main, 2/3 spacer, Pirelli MT66 tires, Raptor petcock, 412-4006 Progressive shocks

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Yonuh Adisi FSO Serious Thumper Offline Savage Jedi (Knight) Posts: 3622 Pilot Valley NV, aka Tatooine Gender:	Re: cold weather warm-up blues Reply #10 - 03/03/10 at 08:20:11 There is only one vac line. On the right side of the carb usually covered with a metal wire spring thing.
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Routy

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Re: cold weather warm-up blues
Reply #11 - 03/03/10 at 13:06:18

Did you have it on prime when it did it ? If so, its not the vacumn valve giving the problem. And if you didn't, why not leave it on prime and eliminate the valve as the potenial problem.

Still sound like icing to me. W/o any type of heat riser or hot air intake, I can't believe these bikes are designed to runcorrectly in freezing temps,.....IMO.

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Rich
'07 S40 Blvd stocker, except drilled OEM exhaust and white spacer mod...1/2 (.055)

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Bubba

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Re: cold weather warm-up blues
Reply #12 - 03/03/10 at 13:43:45

Let me see if I understand this...If I experience this problem again I should set it to prime and see what happens.
If it still stumbles then I should leave it on prime, close off the vac line and plug the point where the vac line attaches to the carb.
If it still runs well then it's the petcock and or the vac line causing the issue?
So the vac line could be temp sensitive and I could do this when I feel stupid enough to ride on a below freezing morning or just install a Raptor 660...
If there is no change when the above is done then I'm icing I suppose and there is no solution... Sad

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'06 lt Blue, Dyna Power pipe, air screw 2 1/4 turns, 52.5 pilot w/ bleed holes, 150 Main, 2/3 spacer, Pirelli MT66 tires, Raptor petcock, 412-4006 Progressive shocks

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Digger

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Re: cold weather warm-up blues
Reply #13 - 03/03/10 at 19:17:54

Bubba wrote on 03/03/10 at 13:43:45:

Let me see if I understand this...If I experience this problem again I should set it to prime and see what happens.
If it still stumbles then I should leave it on prime, close off the vac line and plug the point where the vac line attaches to the carb.
If it still runs well then it's the petcock and or the vac line causing the issue?
So the vac line could be temp sensitive and I could do this when I feel stupid enough to ride on a below freezing morning or just install a Raptor 660...
If there is no change when the above is done then I'm icing I suppose and there is no solution... Sad

Can't speak to the vac line being sensitive to cold temperatures, but I've experienced petcock diaphragm problems in the past with cold temps.

BTW, your rationale sounds basically good to me. Good luck!

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Digger
2001, Metallic Glacial Blue, Raptor Petcock, Verslavy (first hole) (otherwise, mechanically, the bike is stock), 13,xxx miles
I don't own a cage.
www.astronautbiker.com

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justin_o_guy2 Serious Thumper Offline What happened? Posts: 55279 East Texas, 1/2 dallas/la.	Re: cold weather warm-up blues Reply #14 - 03/04/10 at 01:15:40 IDK how thick/stiff the diaphragm is, but at 30 degrees, rubber gets a bit stiff, sometimes.
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