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Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame) (Read 3546 times)
Oldfeller
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Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
10/20/09 at 15:52:02
 

Had a pucker moment last night, running about 50-55 down a city street when I get this sharp pop that is both impact sound and sharp stumble sensation from the engine.  Started slowing down and got another one.  Limped home with visions of cam chain tensioner spitting springs into main gears running through my head.

Got up this morning and drained oil, put it up on the lift and started the exploration.


up on lift, ready to yank the pipe.


5 bolts to take off the exhaust system.


bent open the tab on the clutch cable.


Note location of the three bolts that have washers and "o"rings



17mm extension on plunger at 13,690 miles.  No sign of flexing or kinking or dropping the spring.  I got off lucky ....

I fished around inside the sump with a pickup magnet looking for any bits of metal of any kind and came up empty.  I pulled the belt cover and checked the belt and the sprocket teeth for any signs of having eateSome have even tilted the engine in the frame to make getting some parts off easier if you leave the tank on --- but I say it is a lot simpler to take the tank completely off and get it out of the way totally so you can SEE everything and get to everything easier.n a rock or such -- nothing.

Tomorrow I pull the tank and start pulling the head cover to see what is going on up there.
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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:23:30 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #1 - 10/21/09 at 04:57:50
 

The pop was not an exhaust noise, it was an impact sound of momentarily impeded gears.  So I looked for gears, gear by products in the sump, etc.  I will actually turn and examine some gears for marking as soon as I get the plug out.

And yes, time for cam is.  Excuse in effect is.  At Verslagen's sage advice Raptor petcock I will put.  Carburetor will jets get, exam also.  Rubber plug, stud retorque also.   Sprocket & chain kit, perhaps.  Sidecovers oxidized are, wheel painted to be.  Fun I will have.  Pictures I will take.

Verslagen, log me on the cam chain listing as 17mm extension at 13,690 miles.  Note me as "wicker" as the first 7,000 miles were staid stockish use, but have become progressively higher revving in the last 6,000 to the point I may be breaking things.  Abuser, am I.
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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:23:03 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #2 - 10/21/09 at 08:14:55
 

Let's see, today is a short day because I have to go to work.  Please excuse the use of Serenity's old engine (the one I keep sitting on my desk) for some of the pictures as my black painted cases make for some very vague shots with black on black on black and all.

First, someone PM'd me asking about the stand I use.



It comes from Harbor Freight, it is their most expensive motorcycle stand and it works pretty well.  Note that I tie the cycle down to the stand from both directions as the stand allows you to wheel the bike around on its little wheels fairly freely.  The bike wants to tip over while you do this, so you rope it down tightly.  A technique for getting "tight" is to let the stand down an inch, rope it off then jack the stand back up that last inch -- nice tight ropes then.

Let's talk about fishing inside your rabbit holes with a magnetic pick up for a little bit.  You need to do this every time you have the chance as you are looking for bits of transmission dog edges and other pieces of hard steel that are generated by your motor.   Mine came up squeaky clean on this check, so I went and took some pics of Serenity's old motor since you could see what was going on.







As you can see, there is some dog edges and other transmission debris present inside most of our motors.  The stuff lives in the bottom of the sump, just kicking around in the oil unless you make the effort to get it out when you have the opportunity.

Remember to check you oil pump drive gear for potential disengagement due to previous owner clutch flange orientation error.  You do this by trying to finger your oil pump gear forward and out of engagement with the clutch gear.  



If you can disengage the oil pump gear you need to take the clutch off and check the orientation of the mounting spacer flange and check for the absence of the little roller that keys the drive gear in place.





Lastly, always remember to block off your rabbit holes with a paper towel to keep circlips and locator pins from diving down them durn rabbit holes when you least expect it.
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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:23:15 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #3 - 10/27/09 at 14:06:52
 

Back to work on the bike today --started by draining the gas tank.




Pulled the seat off, then I went to the other side of the engine to unhook the speedo cable and the vacuum line.



Use a baggie twist tied on the end of the speedo line immediately after you unscrew it.  Your seal will fall out sooner or later and the baggie makes it a lot easier to find.

Unbolt your two bolts at the rear of the tank then use the bolts to retain all your rubber spacers in the correct order.  Remember when you go to pull the tank the first motion is to the left to clear the petcock, then the front of the tank goes straight up in the air to clear the rubber bumpers.

Stop as soon as the tank is free as you have electrical and tank lines to clear before lifting the tank away.





Your bike may not be equipped with this line -- use was EPA mandated at different times for different areas of sale.  

Before removing the tank, sketch the paths the various items took along the inside of the tank in pencil so you have a "memory" of the correct routings.  You will struggle to get everything to fit back under there without this memory.

============



As you start to unbolt the left side chrome glory cap please remember to remove and correctly re-attach all the anti-rattle rubber pieces that go with the part.  Also note the vertical cover bolt which HAS to be taken off with the cover and returned already installed when you put the cover back on the head.



On the right hand chrome glory cap, you unbolt it and lift it up to get access to the rubber oil vapor blow-by hose that runs to the air box.  Pull this hose off to remove the glory cap.



Here are a couple of little anti-rattle bumpers that you are going to lose if you don't put them in the baggie with the glory cap screws -- they stick to the head cover then jump off later when you are not looking.


=============================
=============================
=============================   ALL STOP !!  WTF !!
=============================


You can't proceed with the spark plug recess full of sand and crap like that !!  You'd eat your motor when all that crap fell down inside your spark plug hole !!   DO NOT LOOSEN THE SPARK PLUG !!  ALL STOP !!



You gotta back track some now.   Go stuff a paper towel nice and tight inside the exhaust hole.  Lightly  reattach the blow-by hose on the right side of the head.  Put on the right (clutch) side cover and tie it down lightly with a few bolts.



Note how the clutch lever "U" shaped piece is taped in the vertical position?   This is so you won't forget it has to go back in that way.

===============

Now, trundle the bike outside on your wheeled stand and spray the inside of the head area with GUNK engine degreaser and scrub it really good with a paint brush to loosen all the crap up.  Reapply the GUNK again and scrub it again until you have reason to think the hardened cooked crap has actually dissolved and the sand and grit are loosened up and ready to spray away.  

Make sure you brush out all the fin areas affected by the head leak all the way around the head while the GUNK is still moisture free and able to loosen the corruption up so the water stream can blow it off.

*************************  scrub for 15-20 minutes until you are sure it is ready



Hit it with the hose and then reinspect to see you really got all the crap out of there.

OK, you are good.  Trundle the bike back into the garage and put it up for the night -- it needs lots of time for all that water to evaporate before you proceed any further.



=======================

GREETINGS EARTHLING -- THIS IS THE FUTURE SPEAKING TO YOU.

It is now at the end of the job and we wish we had done this differently, so we are sending you this message into the past in hopes it keeps you from screwing up or doing it wrong like you already did -- so pay attention !!

=======================



Hindsight Section:

Any time you do a major job you have things you wished you had done differently.  So here they are as they come up to my mind.

1)  Cleaning up the spark plug area for embedded sand grit.  I originally used engine cleaner and then had to go back after it with brake cleaner later on.  Brake cleaner is acetone in a spray can and it can cut the baked on oil/sand crap MUCH FASTER & better than the engine cleaner did.  

I think I did the order of the things backwards, I should have started with the brake cleaner (fast, effective - but temporary) to fast dissolve the encrusted oil, and then hit it with the engine cleaner before the brake cleaner had completely evaporated, this would have suspended all the dissolved crud in the fast disappearing brake cleaner.

(brake cleaner goes away fast, but the thicker engine cleaner does not evaporate much at all).  

All the  fast acting advantage gained by the brake cleaner would have been transferred over to the engine cleaner which then would have continued removing even more of the crud.  I should have paid a lot more attention to the hidy-hole behind the spark plug == a lot more attention.  Then the hard hitting water blast could have flushed ALL the sand away on the first cleaning session instead of making me do two different clean ups.

Ya gotta get all the sand out of all the pockets and hidy-holes or you may wind up with some down inside your cylinder.     Undecided
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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:24:38 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #4 - 10/29/09 at 15:04:50
 
to show a bit more what OF is talking about.  With regards to the tank and removal.

these are on the underside of the tank, both sides.(at least on my 07)


and these rubber stopper looking things on either side of the frame secure the tank in those holders, along with the rear bolts.


No disrespect on the added pics OF.  I just had my tank off and wanted to show a bit more.
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #5 - 10/29/09 at 17:21:49
 

No sweat, the clearer the better, the more the merrier.  

If someone needs clarification, please ask while we are doing it -- you get a much better chance of getting extra pics or clarification than you do once the stage is past and buttoned up again.
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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:27:08 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #6 - 10/30/09 at 08:23:09
 

Let's start this next day of teardown playtime by giving hommage to the list instructions given by past members.  You are getting ready to get internal, so go read this old post as part of your getting ready to bust it open.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1099227295/0

Now, let's morn together the passing of all the pictures that were at one time part of this old thread.  They are gone now, along with all the good information they once possessed.  I will re-host the pictures that I re-use in this thread so they will be renewed and they will last as long as Hunt101 does -- but when Hunt101 kicks me off for old age this Tech thread will get pic denuded just like all its predecessors did.  But hey, by then hopefully you will have some new list member busy snapping pics and writing new tech threads that are even better.

==============

Part of getting ready means printing out the pics at the bottom of this post.  You have to do some gyrations do do this because Microsoft's XP, Vista and System 7 are so darn helpful with the pictures they won't allow you to print net stuff that isn't all automatically resized by their default systems software.  

So follow the instructions and print out the bolt map, then tape it to a junk box top and cut some "X" patterns in the bolt holes so you can poke each bolt through its picture to save it and its washer in a nice logical fashion.  

Note the L65 and L70 have colored circles around them.  This is to remind you that you have to have them sitting in place when you put the head cover back on or you are soooooo screwed that you have to take it off and do all it over again.  Keep your washers with the screws and do not mix up any washer types/sizes.

=============

OK, to get full size printables of these images you need to download the images to your desktop by clicking on them to look at them and then right clicking on the image that you see and selecting "Save image as" out of the dialog box and then telling it to save it to your desktop.  Do this for both of the images given below.

Then go here and download Irfanview (a freeware that does NOT use the infamous Microsoft Fax and Picture Viewer which is what has screwed up all your picture sizes for you all these years) and then print the images at full size using the top item (Original Size from image DPI) on the Irfanview print menu.  

http://download.cnet.com/IrfanView/3000-2192_4-10021962.html

All this just to get some full sized printed images to use when working on your bike --  (ain't Microsoft fun?)

=============

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/HeadPattern01web1.jpg

This image is a direct link to a full size printable that was originally posted by Savage Greg.  

While you are busy getting ready, print out this item that was originally provided by Digger -- they are retorque order maps of the head cover that might be useful to you.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/combo_torque_map.jpg


================

Now that you have your 2 pieces of paper in hand, let's go to work!

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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:27:21 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #7 - 10/30/09 at 17:12:40
 

First thing, take off the top motor mount (3 cross bolts thru two pieces of bent sheet metal).  You need to do this first then dust away all the trash produced from the blue locktite breaking free before taking off any of the covers.  Makes a right little dusty blue mess on top of the head cover, it does.

Then pull your alternator side cover round plug, take off the valve covers and clean up any trash that is produced before pulling your spark plug.  Make sure there is no trash or grit anywhere in the plug recess before pulling the plug !!!



Baggie up your parts nice and neat -- you will need to rebuild the parts of the motor mount back into the motor mount assembly as the washer, lock washers and tread locked bolts need to stay mated together (you got 3 different lengths, different nuts, etc).   The more anal and neat you are on disassembly means you'll have fewer "aw shucks" moments later when putting it all back together later ...   Grin

We are gonna assume you have tuned your scoot before and are familiar with taking out the generator side plug to get to your timing marks and also with removing your valve covers.  Take them off now so you can go hunting top dead center on the compression stroke.



Put your engine at top dead center on the compression stroke, aligning the marks in the round plug window.  Remember, your Clymers is wrong about the direction of turn -- you always go counter clockwise (the same direction that the rear wheel turns) when going through the exhaust stroke, intake stroke and stopping at the top of the compression stroke.  Watch your valves actuate and watch your soda straw go up and down with the top of the piston.

Now get out your piece of paper with the bolt map on it, tape it to a cardboard box and start carefully removing the cover bolts and sticking them into the X mark you make with your pocket knife.  You will not be able to take out the centermost bolt as the frame is in the way.



You DO NOT WANT TO REMOVE the L16 bolt that is next to the L65 and nut -- it does not need to come out as it retains the compression release lever.  Leave that one alone, the rest come out.

===============

Breaking the cover free is easily done with a screwdriver wedged into the gap between the fins at a thick spot.  Pick a spot where the castings are reinforced and wedge gently -- if you got all the bolts out it will come apart with very mild force.  It if won't move, go over your bolt listing again (did you get the ones by the valve adjustment screws inside the adjustment covers?)

You have to move the long vertical L65 bolt out of the way before you can get the cover out of the frame.  Pull it down as soon as you can ge the cover over the edge of the head and get it out of the way, then you can pull the top one out and then slide the cover completely out of the frame.



Some have even tilted the engine in the frame to make getting some parts off easier if you leave the tank on --- but I say it is a lot simpler to take the tank completely off and get it out of the way totally so you can SEE everything and get to everything easier.



My cam journal bearings and tappets are in excellent shape, original machining and grinding marks still visible on all components.  Gotta love that Rotella Syn oil, she's taking good care of me even despite my evil wickerish ways.

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« Last Edit: 07/09/16 at 11:37:16 by verslagen1 »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #8 - 11/02/09 at 13:03:46
 

It's a new day off, time to hit the garage for a few hours of fun !!

Let's see, we had it open and it was time to clean it up, pull the plug and retorque the head.  Then we will pull the cam for change out.



So, pop the plug out (mine came out quite easily with NO sealer on it whatsoever -- even Clymers says put sealer on it now-a-days.  Suzuki still hasn't gotten the word yet.



Please, take some care not to damage your aluminum gasket surface !!



Now let's talk about re-torquing the head for a bit.   There is a long term disagreement about the best way to do it, so read up a bit using search and make up your own mind as to which method is best.

Me, I unscrewed each fastener in turn, lubed the nut and the flat with neverseize and re-installed the nut and brought it back up to torque.  Each pull up to 21-24 foot pounds was butter soft and easy, with no grabbing and jerking of the fastener whatsoever.  

Theory is that the remaining 3 studs hold everything down tight and good while you service the one (1) nut that you just undid.  I do not hold with taking them all four loose at the same time -- you will break seal on the head gasket, base gasket, etc. etc. if you take them all loose at the same time.

Yes, there is some stress taking one (1) loose, but less stress than taking all 4 loose by far.  YOU MUST LUBE OR OIL THE THREADS OR YOU DO NOT GET AN ACCURATE TORQUE READING AT ALL -- all you get is twisting of the stud and jerky erratic movements from the fastener rubbing on the copper washers.

Now you have everything pulled up evenly to the 24 max foot pounds, give it a half hour and go back round again.  Hey, 20 was start of movement and it ramped back up to 24 within a quarter turn on each of the 4 studs.  Well, stop and re torque the two upside down nuts under the head and the 2 at the base gasket for the jug, give it another half hour and check them again.

Same story, 20 to start and it ramps right back up to 24 within an eighth to a quarter of a turn.  All you are doing after the first two re-torques is stretching the stud some more, so give it one more pull up and quit.  

Time to clean the hole up with some brake cleaner for the new plug.  Juice it up with some black gasket maker and push that new plug home with your thumb !!



Note the displaced gasket maker evenly distributed around the plug.

Now, let's talk about gasket maker stuff in general.  First, the stuff is constantly evolving and improving, so old arguments you read about brand X vs brand y likely don't even apply any more.  My castings are painted black, so I bought 500 degree rated high temperature black Permatex gasket maker -- this stuff does not require air dry time so you can bolt it right up after applying it.  

(Hey, I told you the stuff is constantly getting better and better since the last time you bought some.)

You want your stuff to be able to be bolted up wet, as that is what you MUST do on the cover -- you do not want to have to let it dry for 15 minutes and make a stiff build up as that would jack your cam bearing clearance out through the roof and that is NOT a good thing.  You want to be able to bolt it up wet and squish it out to almost nothing thickness and that is what the current version of Permatex Ultra Black Hi-Temp will allow you to do.

Next, Advanced Auto sells a half ounce tiny tube of the stuff for $2.29 -- unless you have enough planned to use a big tube up just buy a little tube.  Big tubes, all I have ever seen is stiffened up big tubes that I toss away after a few years.  Buy a little tube -- it is enough and the big tubes cost $8.95 more (and it will all be wasted anyway).

Periodically, put your thumb back on top of that new style rubber plug and check that it hasn't jacked itself up out of the hole.  This has been reported by other list members as happening to them, so until your sealer sets up good keep a check that it doesn't happen to you.

==============

Take a break and read up on cam pulling in Clymers.  You got to keep track of some orientation stuff and put a safety wire on your cam chain.  Also, get some white out and put a white out mark on the cam chain where it sits on top of the cam sprocket right now.

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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:29:53 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #9 - 11/02/09 at 15:21:19
 

Cam pulling time !!   You have your Clymers out and you have read all the stuff about putting it at top dead center and the lines line up and the chain needs a safety wire and all that.



Take a small chisel and bend the ear down so you can move the bolt head.  Use a socket extension to finish moving the ear so you don't accidentally hurt it with the chisel edge (if you are a cheap bastard you want to reuse the ear retainer thingy so you don't want to damage it or over stress it)



There is lots & lots of locktite on those bolts, so take all the slack up out of the cam chain and whack your wrench end sharply with a hammer to break the bolt free.  Be careful not to drop the bolt --- it is sooooo bad when that happens and it doesn't fall out the bottom of the side cover ....  real bad.   They call it something like "top end teardown", don't they?  Sounds serious -- so don't drop it until you baggie it.

You will need to rotate the alternator cover hole nut to move the cam around so you can get to the other nut.  Same story, whack it sharply and don't drop it or the half-moon sheet metal retainer gizmo when you take them out.  Baggie both pieces.

Now, take off the little rubber plug at the end of the cam shaft to expose the alignment marks.  You will be reusing this rubber plug, so treat it gently.  Baggie it.

=============

Once you get the cam unbolted and the rubber plug removed, gently rotate everything around to top dead center again, being careful that it really is top dead center with the cam lobes down into the bathtub and all alternator hole markings lined up and the cam to housing markings you just exposed are all lined up.






=============


Ok, we are going for the cam removal.

Stop right now and set up your safety wire on the cam chain, twisting a loop of wire loosely around the chain so the chain can move freely in the loop, then attaching the other end to the fin relief area so the wire cannot follow the chain on down into the head and cylinder cases.

It takes both hands to pull the cam, and it is a full attention sort of thing so you don't have a pretty picture of it (I was right busy at the time).  

It is a 3 step process ...

1)  You move the cam sprocket away from the cam and it falls off a shoulder and drops down a quarter of an inch.  The cam shaft is now free to lift and rock in the journals in an up/down tilted fashion just a bit.

2)  This gives you just enough room to lift the cam chain up off the sprocket teeth.  You manipulate the cam shaft up/down in the journals (tilting the whole affair towards you and down) you pull the sprocket forward towards you while pushing the cam chain back over and off the top of the sprocket teeth.

3) Pull the cam shaft back, freeing the sprocket and the chain.  The chain drops down until the safety wire catches it and you hang on to the sprocket in one hand and the cam shaft in the other.  Take note that the little pin does not come free from the cam shaft shoulder and go anywhere -- you want it to stay with the cam shaft shoulder.  Next, worry about the half moon clip that should have stayed in the head assembly but sometimes comes out with the cam shaft -- you don't want to lose track of it and have it drop down inside the engine.

Step 3 is a little busy, isn't it?  

Quick, baggie everything before anything can escape -- it is the first chance they have had to run off since the Suzuki factory all those many years ago and believe me, if they get a chance they are going escape if they can.

Wink
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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:34:05 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #10 - 11/03/09 at 14:48:15
 

Today was a full day, but not a whole lot seems to have been accomplished.   Part of this was the new Web Stage 2 cam, I think this might be the first one ever installed and written up so I did all the qualification checks Web specified to "qualify" the cam.

Web Cam has a whole sheet of "owner responsible" clearance checks and function checks that basically say "We made what you said you wanted, but we take no responsibility for it causing your springs to go solid & break,  or your valves to hit each other inside the combustion chamber or for your screw adjustments to whack the inside of your covers, etc. etc."

At least they take the effort to list ALL the ways a high lift cam can mess you up and then suggest ways for you to check it all out before turning the engine on.

So, I put the cam in, assembled the engine top end completely (with valve clearances set) with run in lubricant but without any gasket sealer, rotated it through and did all the Web specified clearance checks, tore it back down, cleaned it up, gasket sealed it, put it back together (with assembly lube) torqued it and called it a night while the gasket sealer sets up good.





This was my check pics for the new cam as installed -- making sure all the orientations were the same and all alignments came out correctly.

Putting the cam in is the same juggling act as Step 3 in the cam disassembly from yesterday except in reverse.  It is easy to mis-index the sprocket by 1 tooth, but then the horizontal lines are off and that clues you which way to step the chain on the sprocket to fix it.  Do take the time to go through a few 4 cycle checks and hit top dead center several times, index it good and check everything out good.  

IF THAT CAM ISN'T RIGHT YOU WILL DO A FULL TEAR DOWN TO FIX IT -- be anal and do it several times to be sure.  

Also, I put locktite on the two bolts that are retained by the bent half moon thingie -- belt and suspenders for a part that one list member had fail due to possible under torque condition.   The spec'd torque is only a mild 10-11.5 foot pounds, so some locktite is good insurance that the fasteners won't vibrate free at some later date.



Ever seen a brass feeler gage before?  That .010" thick gage goes inside your valve spring sets to check to see if they are going solid under the new cam's higher lift.



You bend it up into a snake so you can get it inside the raised spring, then you cycle it down with the cam into full compression and see if you can pull it out.  If you did go solid you wouldn't be able to pull it out and the soft brass would take a crush impression from the spring coils pinching it.  

To the best of my ability, we don't seem to have a coil binding issue with this new cam.  It doesn't smack the valves against the piston top,  wang them against each other in cycling, nor does it beat up the covers.  I will report any durability issues that arise over time, but right now I think the engine is good to go for break in.



Here is the cover with assembly lube on the pads and everything clean and ready to apply the gasket maker to it.  Assembly lube comes in two basic types, with moly and graohite and without.  Your clutch prefers assembly lube without moly and graphite as it gets in the oil system and winds up in the clutch where it can result in slippage.  

A simple lithium based wheel grease out of your pump grease gun would actually do the job (which is to support friction free running until the oil pump moves oil up there through the empty passages).



Here is the head with the second installation of run in lube all ready to apply the gasket maker to it.

You set everything out and easy to hand, INCLUDING THE TWO SCREWS (L65 and L70) THAT HAVE TO BE IN PLACE WHEN THE HEAD COVER GOES BACK ON.  

Then you clean your hands take a deep breath.  15 minute clock starts now., or

And then you goop the cover (including the large end seal recess since we are reusing the old end seal) set the curvy "O" ring in place in the recess with a little gasket maker on the edges -- then you goop the head surfaces, goop the end seal recess, pick up the end seal and lightly goop the outer surface and then put it in place in the head recess.

Stop and clean your hands again, quickly.  Then put the two fasteners (L65 and L70) in place in the head and then tilt the head up and install it from the left side of the motor while not letting your gooped surfaces touch anything.  Remember that the L65 bolt head goes down a level inside the cylinder fins (it has a mounting slot that you see on top)  and watch out for the little formed "O" ring around the hollow locator dowel getting out of its recess.  Settle the head cover down over the guts and begin dropping in the bolts.



Turn all the bolts to touch when you put them in then do the first pull up at 60 inch pounds following the order of the pull up chart listed below (you have a printed copy of it, right?).

FROM THIS POINT ON BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO MOVE THE CLUTCH BASKET, THE ALTERNATOR NUT OR THE CAM OR THE ENGINE IN ANY FASHION.  YOU DO NOT WANT TO SMEAR SOFT SEALER ACROSS THE BEARING JOURNALS



Then go for 80 inch pounds on the next round, then up it to 100 inch pounds for the third round.  Give it 15 minutes and go around again and you will find some of the longer fasteners pull up more and the one in the middle pulls up quite a bit more (you got oozing going on).

Give it another 15 minutes and go around again -- not much should move this time.  Give it 30 minutes and go around again -- nothing should move except maybe the center and 1-2 of the longer fasteners.

Go again in an hour and nothing should move -- you are done for tonight.  

The cover needs 24 hours to fully cure before rotating the cam as YOU DO NOT WANT TO SMEAR SOFT SEALER ACROSS THE BEARING JOURNALS -- you want it to set up totally solid so it breaks free leaving just a little lump of gelled gasket maker in the journal to cam clearance which then slowly gets worn away as the cam oscillates around in the clearance in the oil film while running.  

Your assembly lube will make sure the goo lump won't stick to the cam steel after it sets up good, but you have to take care not to move anything while the gasket maker is wet and gooey or you could smear it across the shaft and the journals and get some goo contaminated aluminum journals which would then pick up wear trash and could then lead to journal galling and failure.



Put a cover over it and put it to bed for the night.  You can break it free in the morning.  

Go eat dinner, watch a show with your wife and then go upstairs to your mini lathe and knock out a new clutch push rod that is 1mm longer than the stock push rod -- and while you are there, shorten the stock rod by 1mm just so you can finally answer the question "which way does it go" for once and for all.  

(I still reserve the right to not know and to be wrong occasionally -- keeps me human  Grin )


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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:35:16 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #11 - 11/05/09 at 04:47:32
 



I made my 1mm longer rod from 1/4 inch drill rod that I had on hand.  There is enough clearance in the clutch hole to readily accommodate the larger size.

======================

Note from the FUTURE again ....  The standard hardware drill rod material is too soft (wears too easily on the ends) and it cannot be hardened in a reliable fashion that will not get hot in use and turn blue and resoften on you.  

Standard drill rod will not work, period
.   Go get you some full hardened 6mm real parts from Suzuki, or if you are stubborn like me go get a quarter inch diameter piece of M-2 HHS lathe tool bit material and make your push rod out of something that WILL NOT wear out or heat soften under any circumstances.

======================



This is the shorter rod installed, it moves the lever in the wrong direction removing all the adjustment travel and rendering the clutch "worn out".  Shorter is incorrect, the cutch rods must be made LONGER.



Here is the 1mm longer rod, suddenly the same 13,000 mile old clutch pack is "new" again with all of the adjustment travel available again.  Longer is the correct direction and 1mm step lengths are obviously the correct stepping distance.  And now the "which way does it go?" question is finally answered.


=============




Installation of a Slavy tip on the factory cam chain adjuster showing the drill bit butt method to hold the spring tension back while putting the shoulder bolt in place.  I used locktite on this fastener as I didn't want it coming loose due to vibration over time.



$0.88/5 hand cut paper gasket going in.  The stock Suzuki side cover gasket costs $17.00 plus shipping, so there is a thread on how to replace it with a hand cut paper gasket.  Read the notes at the start and end of the thread, use of the black silicone gasket maker over both sides of the paper gasket (covering the inside and outside edges thoroughly) is recommended after having some weepage troubles at the oil gallery area with the bare paper gasket.  You need to "rubberize" the gasket with gasket maker, let it harden, then install it with a thin wet wipe of gasket maker in the oil gallery area to provide a maximum durable oil pressure proof seal.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256595298



You need to torque your gasket covers to keep the force even and to hold it down to the appropriate levels.  I think most leaks in this area are from uneven/too much pressure crushing and pinching the gasket and warping the cover.  There is a $3.95 torque tool mentioned in the thread above, so having no little bitty torque wrench shouldn't be a show stopper to you.



While I was waiting through the pull downs on the cover, I also did the baggie trick to heavy gear oil lube my clutch cable.  I also pulled the drain plug on the engine to make sure I didn't have any solvent contamination in the sump from all the cleaning & spraying.
(I did, a half cup of thin runny oily stuff came out on the floor)

Plan to change your oil after the first half hour of run time after a major rebuild as you have used solvents and there are tiny bits of gasket trash and some assembly lubes that will be contaminating that oil.  Expect some clutch slippage if you sprayed solvents anywhere near the clutch pack (you changed the oil viscosity inside the clutch) which will heal itself in the first day or so of riding

=====================

Time to put the oil in place.  I am using Rotella T dino white jug oil for the first few oil changes as they are very quickly done to get all contaminants out of the engine.

How you put the oil into the engine after a top end teardown is important.  You put it in through the valve covers, not the fill screw cap hole.



Put a half quart in VERY QUICKLY into the front cover.  Goal is to flood the area and raise the oil level right up to the bottom lip of the cover.  This floods the valve springs, valve stem and stem seal with oil.



Put all the rest of the oil in the back cover, once again pouring it VERY QUICKLY to raise the oil level right up to the lower lip of the recess.  This floods the valve springs, valve stem and stem seal with oil AND IT FILLS UP THE CAM LOBE BATHTUB AREA.

You will use more than 2 quarts of oil.  Go high in the sight glass as you have lots of galleries and oil passages to fill up once you crank the engine over.

STOP AND VERIFY THERE ARE NO GRITS OF SAND ANYWHERE AROUND THE HEAD RECESS AREAS!!  THIS INCLUDES THE HIDY HOLE BEHIND THE SPARK PLUG!!  You are getting ready to huff and puff out the park plug hole and you don't want to blow around and then suck up any sand grits down inside your cylinder !!!

Note:  put the spark plug into the rubber boot and ground it against a metal surface and then spray a little WD40 into your spark plug hole to top end lubricate your cylinder walls, rings and piston skirt.  Since stuff likes to move, try lightly restraining your plug against the steel jacket of the compression release with a clamp or a set of vice grips lightly applied (compression release is a good ground, very convenient to be able to see the spark, etc.)

You carefully maintain a normal spark plug ground condition to keep from stressing your ignition electronics -- this is important because if you kill an ignitor (black box) it costs triple digit money to get a new one.

Then crank your engine over with the starter for several 5-6 second bursts.  Give it 10 minutes between bursts for your starter motor to cool back down a bit then do it again.   The oil level in the sight glass should drop down about a quarter of a glass.  This "missing volume" will go to fill your oil galleries back up and get the oil flow reestablished back up to the head without stressing any dry parts like actually starting the engine would do.

It also gives you a chance to spot any cover oil leaks before you finish putting the bike back together -- saves time in case of a repair need.


=============


Crank up report:

Started right up, idled just fine.  A little extra noise from the top end (Web Cam wants an extra thou of valve clearance on their hot cam set up).  Going at it easy right now so there is no overall performance report to give quite yet.  

Old bottom end torque is still there, but it is not the same, there is a mid range surge towards the top end that was not there before.  Where you went flat before, you now have a slight second stage "pickup".  

Clutch pack hasn't settled in from all the fiddling I did, plus all the solvents and other assembly lubes floating around in the oil -- I need to do an oil change and see if I can get the clutch calmed down some.

There were no oil leaks at head or side cover -- all is good on that front.
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« Last Edit: 08/02/14 at 18:38:35 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #12 - 11/06/09 at 20:06:17
 
Hindsight Section:

Any time you do a major job you have things you wished you had done differently.  So here they are as they come up to my mind.

1)  Cleaning up the spark plug area for embedded sand grit.  I originally used engine cleaner and then had to go back after it with brake cleaner later on.  Brake cleaner is acetone in a spray can and it can cut the baked on oil/sand crap MUCH FASTER & better than the engine cleaner did.  

I think I did the order of the things backwards, I should have started with the brake cleaner (fast, effective - but temporary) to fast dissolve the encrusted oil, and then hit it with the engine cleaner before the brake cleaner had completely evaporated, this would have suspended all the dissolved crud in the fast disappearing brake cleaner (brake cleaner goes away fast, engine cleaner does not evaporate much at all).  

All the  fast acting advantage gained by the brake cleaner would have been transferred over to the engine cleaner which then would have continued removing even more of the crud.  I should have paid a lot more attention to the hidy-hole behind the spark plug == a lot more attention.  Then the hard hitting water blast could have flushed ALL the sand away on the first cleaning session instead of making me do two different clean ups.

Ya gotta get all the sand out of all the pockets and hidy-holes or you may wind up with some down inside your cylinder.     Undecided

2) Brake cleaner (acetone) is neat stuff, but it isn't neat for cleaning the clutch cover.  The clear plastic oil level window is fogged by it.  It can likely get fogged by most carb cleaners too.  Engine cleaner may not fog it, but I can't say that for sure because I didn't use engine cleaner on mine.  (Yep, I fogged mine up).  You might try hot soapy water in your wife's sink ....

3) When you work on your clutch rod don't try to take 100% all of the "wear" out of the system.  You do want a little stressed motion left in the system to release the clutch pack.  This is hard to judge because of all the free motion slop that exists in the squared off flat/round junction that actuates the little powdered metal eccentric piece.

You want to NOT use drill rod material -- go get some fully hardened dowel pins or some other fully hardened material (or break bad and actually buy the correct parts -- it won't kill you to pay Suzuki for a push rod that won't wear on the ends)

4) Assembly lubes on the cam are neat & necessary, as is the Web Cam anti-friction moly coating they leave on the cam itself.  So are all the solvents you used so freely during the rebuild.  Just remember to change your oil after the first hour or so of use to GET ALL THAT CRAP OUT OF YOUR ENGINE BEFORE IT TOASTS YOUR CLUTCH PACK !!!

5)  I sprayed brake cleaner (acetone) on my clutch pack when cleaning the cover surfaces.  The fiber discs absorbed the acetone and thinned out the oil that was originally in them, causing the clutch to lose oil viscosity and "stiction".  The clutch slipped for 3 days but then repeated heatup cycles and oil flowing through the clutch itself stabilized the situtation and my clutch returned to normal function.  Scared me good, but had no lasting bad effects other than that.
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« Last Edit: 06/11/10 at 21:19:30 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #13 - 11/07/09 at 02:19:26
 


============    Day One


When I yank the throttle WFO open,  the clutch slips ....

I need to let the clutch settle down, it has acetone soaked into the fiber disks reducing my clutch pack oil viscosity and reducing the clutch's "stiction".   I need to let it evaporate out over some heat up cycles and then I need to change the oil again.

Patience, grasshopper

real ride report comes ....  afterwards


=============    Day Three


Issue with clutch slippage apparently originated from me spraying down the entire side cavity with acetone (brake cleaner).  I had accidentally sprayed the clutch pack with acetone solvent, it had soaked into the clutch pack lowering the viscosity of the oil in the fiber plates.  Wet clutches work with oil stiction/friction, so if you drastically change the oil then they can act ill.  Several warm up cycles and some time to purge out the thinned oil were required to regain normal clutch action.  No pull down or clutch rod adjustment was required.  Just some time and heat up cycles.

Old stock cam went "flat" around 4,000 something rpm -- you always short shifted to the next gear as you stopped getting any real increase in power when this happened.  This is no longer true, engine pulls strong right on up the RPM range now.  (yes, you could blow up your engine by overspeeding it now)

There is more power available.  Running up through the gears is quite different and quite fast, although you have more use of the upper RPMs you get there quite fast.

Example, run through 1-2-3 just as fast as you can, but instead of going 40 something mph you are going a solid indicated 65 mph in third gear instead.  That is a significant difference in performance.

Fourth and fifth are still unexplored, I ran into a strong speed wobble at 90 mph in 4th gear well before topping out in 4th gear.  Fifth really isn't all that different than fourth except you hit the wobble wall at a slightly slower rpm.  

Remember, I have a larger rear wheel, so I under report true mph by about 5 mph on my speedo.

I will put a discussion zone in a Rubber Side Down thread called "Stage 2 Cam Ride Report" so folks can ask any question that they might have.

(1st report at a couple of weeks) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1257808582/0#0

(2nd report at a couple of months) http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1264706482


(Last report, at the end of the first riding year after 2 mountain runs and daily use for over 10 months)

Well, what's new to communicate?  ....  the stock clutch is holding up fine which was something I was concerned about in the long term but turns out not to be an issue.

Been to two major list mountain runs now, my Savage was the fastest thing there and that is with it hauling around a 150 pound weight penalty (me).  

Gas mileage still sucks, runs around 38 mpg if I am zipping.   I still only get 80 miles to a tank full when up on a mountain run.

Valve tappets/cam lobes have finally seated themselves in and are going normal adjustment periods now.   I was worried there for a while as I was having to adjust them every 3-4 months until they finally seated in good to the new Stage 2 cam's different profile.

Oil use has gone up some more, but considering I am turning a lot more RPMs than normal folks and I am getting on up there in mileage compared to when I started out perhaps this is to be expected.

The bike is still mild mannered when ridden normally, it just has more power and a much larger RPM band for you to use in each gear change if you want to wick it on up.

Pending Lancer getting REX up and running, I gots me the fastest known Savage on the East Coast .... I'd say the Stage 2 cam is worth doing even if you don't have a totally bored/high compression piston/tweeked to the max type motor.

Keep your right wrist in control and you got you a normal acting street Savage that simply gets pretty crappy gas mileage -- but we got some of those here on the list because folks have gotten too radical with their jets and exhaust etc which affected their gas usage.


(they just don't run as fast as mine)  

 
               Grin    Grin    Grin
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« Last Edit: 07/14/12 at 02:00:50 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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Re: Tensioner, rubber plug, new cam (in frame)
Reply #14 - 11/17/09 at 05:17:50
 
This is a cut from the resulting discussion about Web Cam telling Lancer why they recommend the Valvoline racing oil that they recommend and why they put the little tube of Red Line ZDDP Break In Grease in the box with the cam for you to use. It all keys around getting enough ZDDP to support the high lift cam during the first 500 miles or so which is the cam's break in period.  If you don't do this, then you can have infantile cam failure syndrome (spauling, rapid wear at the apex of the cam) so please consider it a recommendation of sorts.



============  cut and spliced out of the discussions  ==========


In short, if you back the technical requirements back out of the Web Cam recommended oils, then we are looking for 15,000 ppm of ZDDP -- unusually high amounts of of the key heavy pressure additives which are only found in specialty racing oils and a very very few motorcycle oils that have the necessary concentrations of ZDDP (Amisol).  If you don't want to spring for the very pricey Amisol oil, buy some expensive Valvoline racing oil or else buy a good diesel oil and bump it up a bit with this stuff.



If you get a Lancer Cam you may need to buy a bottle of this stuff and put a couple of ounces in your normal oil changes (and maybe 4 ounces in the first load of start up oil you actually break the cam in with).  The bottle will easily outlast the 500 mile break in period and who knows, it may be a good thing to do ongoing as ZDDP levels in oil drop every time a new oil standard comes out -- gotta protect all those sensors, catalytic converters and other mandated EPA stuff on all those brand new cars, now don't they?

You can buy the stuff at Jegs.com.  The base oil they use is Red Line synthetic so if you like to use a synthetic oil you haven't "polluted" your load of pretty synthetic oil by using the stuff,  you just tinted it a bit with some special red ZDDP good stuff.  

Think of it as synthetic based vitamin tonic for your cam shaft lobes ....

http://www.jegs.com/i/Red+Line+Oil/816/81403/10002/-1
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« Last Edit: 09/15/10 at 23:06:30 by Oldfeller »  

Stock silver 2002 ls650 with small saddle bags. Looks like Granny's old worn out bike, nothing special to it at all.
(all mods except BIG piston and carb change have been done, but do not show)
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