savagebob wrote on 02/09/14 at 01:14:22:
You don't have to remove the engine, just lift it a bit.  Pull the top mount, and all the frame to engine bolts, maybe loosen the back one.  and remove the header.  then you can lift the front of the engine to get enough room to slip the new banjo and bolt in.
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might work, easy to fix if it didn't.  what others have done is put a port in on top of the case into the oil filter pocket.
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and you'd have engine failure in 15 minutes.
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si, cool oil only if you blocked the oil port to the cover.

My temps were based on the oil filter cover and the head next to the cam bore plug using an IR temp gage.

Oil filter cover is probably the low end of the temp cycle.

Using new temp sensors I measure...
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paulmarshall wrote on 12/13/12 at 12:49:31:


I think I recall breaking 300 and then some, can't find it though.

Yes, we discussed this in the past at length and Verslagen and I actually figured out how to install an oil line fitting in the head itself.    I have an oil fitting installed on my backup engine that feeds directly to the very last cam bearing on the internal oil passages.

To make this oil cooling idea even start to work you need to use a custom gasket that totally blocks off the oil passage between the right hand oil filter/clutch cover housing and the main crank housing.   This forces all oil flow and pressure to go out the oil testing port.

This could provide full 100% low rpm oil pressure to your cam gallery through your exterior piping.

Issue now becomes how do you feed all the interior transmission, crank and such like passages if you do this 100% out the test port trick?

Provide proper oil pressure to them through exterior tubing and you are back into parallel pathways again pressure-wise.   But you can use all the oil volume/pressure available running it through your cooler if you do the plumbing right.

But there will be no large volume of flow through the oil cooler doing the trick this way, just what will exit through the cam clearances, crank shaft clearances and transmission flow clearances.

You simply cannot move a large oil volume to "cool the oil" without lowering both oil flow and pressure to the critical internal areas AND the head area.   Your oil pump is currently sized to JUST BARELY feed the internal needs with no deflection of the oil flow for any bulk cooling.


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Now, let's play with the ideas a little bit.   You say supercharging, but do you really mean turbo charging?

Some of your sketches seem to show a turbo, I think.

Does your turbo require an oil feed and a return feed line?

If it is a turbo, then you likely need to run a synthetic oil like T-6 anyway so the oil won't cook itself solid when you cut the engine off and the hot turbo sits with some static oil in it.

If you are running T-6, then you don't need to do any special oil cooling anyway since the Savage at whatever temperature simply doesn't get nearly as hot as a turbo does.

All big 16 wheeler engines have oil passage turbos on them and T-6 was built for that duty from the get go --- it doesn't care about turbo heat unless it goes way up past 550-600^F.


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I investigated nitrous quite intensely at one point in time as it was the cheapest way to find an extra 25 hp.

I determined that the Savage clutch couldn't take that extra 25 horse power without extra plates and stronger springs.

The SV 650 uses the EXACT same steels and fiber plates that we do, just with two more fibers and steels in a slightly longer basket (same exact construction type, just longer for more plates).

I also determined that the tranny would likely go next after the clutch was strengthened  (considering the output shaft pulley splines as part of the tranny makes this just about a no brainer).

I then noticed I was really trying (expensively and laboriously) to bump the Savage up to almost the performance level of a bone stock SV650, so I bought an SV650 and rode it for the most part of a year until I realized that a re-cammed OS high compression pistoned Savage was really enough bike for everything I ever needed.

So, Dave and Lancer have actually built the bike I then envisioned and they can wax my butt at will on a straight away.  To outdo them I would have to go nitrous now -- which means the clutch can't take it ......   etc. etc.  etc.

Next nugget is that riding with two of these known to be better bikes that I know can wax my butt at will, I still can run at the head of the pack as a pure willingness to put your butt on out there in the curvies is more important than hp.  

And the last little nugget for your happy meal is this one, Big Zuk can wax MY butt and all our butts at will on the mountain curvies (run slam away from everybody else) on a bone stock Savage .....




..... unless it is raining on us hard -- in which case Dave will ride MUCH more aggressively because it is really cold and nasty and he really really really really wants to get back to the cabin and get a nice hot shower ....  

And the driving rain keeps him from even reading his speedo so he doesn't even notice he's flying along at 75+ mph in the driving rain.

How did I determine the clutch would slip?

Easy, they like to slip now as a stock engine if you give them the very least excuse (wrong push rod length, energy star oil, etc.).   Mine (stock plates and springs) requires careful adjustment to not slip, and I only make 5-10 extra hp out of my modest mods.  

You are gonna likely need a better clutch, Barrett sells a kevlar one for the Savage with better springs in the package, and you can also pick up SV650 Barrett kevlar clutch pack on Ebay real cheap sometimes.   Doing it that way gets you two extra spare plates and steels .....

Dave runs extra power EMCO Clutch springs in his clutch pack, making around 10-15 extra hp.   Extra power springs put extra stress on the eccentric cam that actuates the clutch, which is a known failure point in stock engines.

The SV 650 makes 74 hp and uses the same part numbers for fiber and steel plates as the Savage, but has 2 more steels and 2 more fibers in the same design basket (basket has longer ears though -- too long to fit under our cover).   Since you are going to approach those hp numbers, guess what you may require to handle that extra hp and torque.

Your Penrite full synthetic oil may well be good enough to run with NO extra cooling required -- it is a PAO full synthetic base stock after all.   Sure, it will get hot under boost, but you don't run high boost all the time, so the oil can cool off during the lower rpm cruising periods.

Going full boost supercharger, you are going to make more peak HP and torque than any of us have done so far, and I expect you will learn more about extra HP clutches and trannys that I currently know.

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I recommend you leave off the oil cooler for now, and see if the Penrite is heat proof to the same degree T-6 is.   From what I have read about it it seems to be very similar to T-6 in intent.

As much as you are going to stress that engine, I think you need full oil pressure and full oil flow to ALL the very stressed internal parts and I would not try to split your oil flow/pressure up to get some dubious oil cooling benefit.   Let your PAO oil simply handle the heat, it can do it.

Just monitor your oil temperature and see what it does.

Congrats on the start of a very innovative build.




    Boys, we gots us a new Frankenstein engine getting ready to roar up off the table.    

This will make 3 frankie bikes out there --- Lancer's Rex, Dave's Pretty Baby and Savagebob's Supercharged Scoot.

So far Dave's Pretty Baby is the only Frankie that has been "robust" and hasn't broken repeatedly.   Rex has been down over the years more than he has been up, but then again he was the very first one and a lot of learning had to take place with him.

simple, the sv650 basket won't fit under the savage clutch cover.
the disc's will fit in the savage clutch basket.

that's a good price

the parts are the same, you just can't use all the discs

kevlar is better than stock.

"The SV 650 makes 74 hp and uses the same part numbers for fiber and steel plates as the Savage, but has 2 more steels and 2 more fibers in the same design basket (basket has longer ears though -- too long to fit under our cover)"

Clear as mud, huh?

All the steel and fiber plates from everybody are identical.   Barrett same as Suzuki same as SV650 -- no difference dimensionally.  

Kevlar friction plates have a different friction material.  The standard stock friction plates for the SV650 and the Savage is the exact same Suzuki part number using cork friction material.

A clutch pack for SV650 has 7 plates, a clutch pack for the Savage has 5 plates

You can't put the extra 2 plates FROM ANYBODY in a Savage basket (no room)

Kevlar plates are better material friction-wise and the Barrett clutch springs are stronger.   EMCO springs gave Dave some issues at first and required a resend from EMCO with corrected springs (ask him for the details as to how well they work).


Well, I stirred the mud up some for you, is it any clearer ????