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battery.... (Read 186 times)
Charon
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Re: battery....
Reply #15 - 05/03/09 at 13:30:33
 
True, these bikes have alternators. But they have alternators with permanent magnets, not field coil excitation. So, as soon as the magnets (mounted on the flywheel) start turning, they generate voltage into the stationary stator coils. Those coils supply three-phase AC to the voltage regulator, which in turn supplies (about) 14.4 volts DC to the entire remainder of the electrical system, including the battery. If the battery is very dead, it may not accept a charge, so it will appear the system is faulty and did not charge it.  A "smart" charger will see this 14.4 volts and no charge acceptance current as a fully-charged (not dead) battery and will switch to trickle or float charge. Given time the trickle charge (or voltage regulator) voltage will begin to charge the dead battery. Once the battery starts to accept charge current its terminal voltage will drop. The regulator will respond by "dumping" less excess charge current; or the "smart" charger will respond by entering bulk charge mode. At this stage the battery charge system will proceed to a normal charge.
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marshall13
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Re: battery....
Reply #16 - 05/03/09 at 15:55:19
 
a transistor in the regulator/rectifier wont allow making the charge circuit without 12 volts from the battery, thus the 2 ignition leads into the reg/rec unit. one's the make circuit, the other the charge.... no batt voltage, no charge...
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prechermike
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Re: battery....
Reply #17 - 05/03/09 at 16:32:46
 
Charon wrote on 05/03/09 at 13:30:33:
True, these bikes have alternators. But they have alternators with permanent magnets, not field coil excitation. So, as soon as the magnets (mounted on the flywheel) start turning, they generate voltage into the stationary stator coils. Those coils supply three-phase AC to the voltage regulator, which in turn supplies (about) 14.4 volts DC to the entire remainder of the electrical system, including the battery. If the battery is very dead, it may not accept a charge, so it will appear the system is faulty and did not charge it.  A "smart" charger will see this 14.4 volts and no charge acceptance current as a fully-charged (not dead) battery and will switch to trickle or float charge. Given time the trickle charge (or voltage regulator) voltage will begin to charge the dead battery. Once the battery starts to accept charge current its terminal voltage will drop. The regulator will respond by "dumping" less excess charge current; or the "smart" charger will respond by entering bulk charge mode. At this stage the battery charge system will proceed to a normal charge.


Yeah, what he said! Huh
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Re: battery....
Reply #18 - 05/03/09 at 16:36:53
 
marshall13 wrote on 05/03/09 at 11:17:56:
these bikes have alternators, not generators
An alternator IS a generator, specifically an alternating current generator.  You might be thinking of a direct current generator.  And, you might be right, I don't know, that the control circuit of these alternators needs to see some voltage in the battery before it'll start putting out.
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most of the chain auto parts stores will charge a battery for you, way cheap, as well as most mechanics shops (cages or bikes)
Be very careful.  Most cannot charge at a low enough level to recharge a small battery at a rate that won't shorten its eventual life, about 2 amp max charging rate.  Figure the max safe battery charging rate to ensure a long life of the battery is about 20% of the amp-hour rate.  Our batteries are rated at 14 amp-hours (thus the "14" in the battery designation), so 3 amps initial charging rate might be OK.
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...sears, walmart, kmart, and all auto parts stores sell small 10 amp max chargers.... cheap, and most handy... tenders "float charge" and most wont charge a completely discharged battery....
Again, 2 amp max for these small batteries.  By "tender" I assume you mean a battery maintainer.  The Battery Tender Jr. is a 3/4-amp full charger plus maintainer, the Battery Tender Plus is a 1-1/4 amp full charger plus maintainer, the BatteryMINDER Plus is a full 1.3 amp charger plus desulfating maintainer.  Any of these will fully charge one of our batteries if we're patient enough and give it time.  As you say, depending on the control circuit in the charger, we might need to supply an initial voltage to get the charger going.
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Charon
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Re: battery....
Reply #19 - 05/03/09 at 16:44:18
 
However, the nominal 12 volts must be present, or the CDI won't be making any sparks and the engine won't be running. The whole system is a parallel circuit, and it isn't very likely the 12 volts can be present in only part of it. Given that the bike has been jump-started, the 12 volts was supplied by the external battery. When the engine starts, the voltage regulator tries to supply the 14.4 volts to charge the external battery, and the bike battery in parallel. In the process it supplies the voltage to the rest of the bike. The external battery is removed when the jumper cables are disconnected. The voltage regulator sees this as a fully-charged battery (the dead one on the bike), and "dumps" excess charge. A push-start is explained similarly, in that the bike battery is rarely so dead as not to be able to supply at least a little voltage, which will probably turn on the low-current control circuitry and CDI in the absence of the heavy starter current.

Edited to add: To be pedantic, a generator is an alternator with built-in mechanical switching - the commutator. Both generators and alternators can be made with either permanent-magnet or electromagnetic fields, or even both. A permanent magnet field does not require excitation, but is harder to control Its charge cannot be reduced, so the excess has to be shunted (dumped) somewhere. The output of an electromagnetic field alternator or generator can be controlled by controlling the field current.
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marshall13
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Re: battery....
Reply #20 - 05/03/09 at 16:55:11
 
ok, maybe i should clarify... by a 10 amp max charger, i meant one of the little guys, selectable 10-5-2 amp charge... cant remember who made mine, and as it's currently charging a friends trolling motor battery, not much chance of my finding out...lol  just wanted to distinguish between it, and one of the 200 amp jobs the service shops use... if you go the chain store route to seek a full charge(or service station, for that matter) you have to make sure they will properly charge it... usually, of course, that will require dealing with someone old enough to know how little he knows.... teen countermen and pump jockeys wouldnt be my first choice....
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