SuzukiSavage.com - pistons again!

callado Ex Member	Re: pistons again! Reply #45 - 03/26/07 at 21:25:52 I'm interested in a buy and get them lightened and coated
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justin_o_guy

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Re: pistons again!
Reply #46 - 03/26/07 at 21:54:47

It would be interesting to know how the "Lightened" piston compares to the stocker. Would be nice if it was lighter. I would be interested in this. I wanna know the $$. Stickin that piston on the shelf till I get enough miles on the cam & chain to need to do it again, then do that & go to rhe chain.THEN I will have to find Hutch & run him down, since I weigh 15 pounds less & will have a cam & piston on him.

Anyone know a cheap way to make the ignition cut out at redline?

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Reelthing Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Fish or ride that is the question Posts: 5397 Houston,Tx Gender:	Re: pistons again! Reply #47 - 03/26/07 at 22:06:43 there are tachs that will do it - define cheap?
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justin_o_guy Ex Member	Re: pistons again! Reply #48 - 03/26/07 at 23:01:39 If I could I would post my picture now. but, since I can't,, 50$$ would make me giggle. I don't care what it looks like. I wouldnt even mind if I had to mount it down by the engine & couldnt even see it. I just want to protect the engine from Desploding atweeen my legs..
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Reelthing Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Fish or ride that is the question Posts: 5397 Houston,Tx Gender:	Re: pistons again! Reply #49 - 03/26/07 at 23:14:28 take more than $50 to hang a revlimit tach on one these Ithink - you ready for that gasket and brace?
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LANCER Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Savage Beast Performance Parts Posts: 10661 Oklahoma Gender:	Re: pistons again! Reply #50 - 03/27/07 at 04:01:10 I would like to get in on the pistons but it just occured to me that mine is one size larger...dang! Do the pistons ordered have to be all the same size, or can we get assorted sizes? Oh well.
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LesGolden Full Member Offline Just a thumpin' away at life. Posts: 113 Coastal GA Gender:	Re: pistons again! Reply #51 - 03/27/07 at 09:34:14 It actually looks like ross doesn't have rings in 96mm, so 97 might be where we need to be. I'd be ok with that, just might have to resleave later on down the road, no biggie. just on lunch break now, i've gotta get all the necessary information and then i'll try to call ross this evening.
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vroom1776

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Re: pistons again!
Reply #52 - 03/27/07 at 09:38:41

resleaving....

Lancer may know the answer to this... how much thickness can be added to the cylinder wall with the ceramic coating process (by Boretech)?

and Lancer said:

LANCER wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:02:

This technique is not a coating that builds up or is a layer on top of the base metal, thus cannot be used to restore worn bores back to size.

but I imagine that having this dond would GREATLY reduce the need to ever resleave, except maybe WAY in the future... yamaha has been doing this (well, ceramic coating their cylinders) for years (at least since 1999), and I've never heard of a stock engine having to be resleaved... other probleme, sure...

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smokin_blue Serious Thumper Offline From Cafes to Streetfighters! I build them all! Posts: 830 St. Paul, MN Gender:	Re: pistons again! Reply #53 - 03/27/07 at 10:22:09 Depending on your final configuration I definately might be interested in getting in on the buy. Thanks! (Now I just have to get these wood projects done so I can make metal chips again!)
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Mr 650

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Re: pistons again!
Reply #54 - 04/06/07 at 17:26:52

I was wondering, the Savage is counterbalanced.
If the piston is lightened, so should the counter-balancer, unless this is only about "more steam", in that case remove the balancer and gain even more HP.
W/ the stock counter-balancer I expect it will want to buzz more, not much fun on long rides...just a hunch.
Didn't Lancer remove his counter- balancer?

LesGolden wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

I will get with Ross pistons and give them all our information. It looks like for a couple bucks extra (10-20) we can get them lightened and coated, i'm not sure i need the coating, but lighter would be nice, maybe give a few more rpm. Also not sure if rings are included in the price, i'll see what their's cost included. work is keeping me busy right now but i will update as soon as i have the information. Unless someone else beats me to it. Then i will just buy the piston.

barry68v10 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:03:

As it turns out, increased compression also increases the speed of the burn. This is bad at lower RPMs since more of the fuel is burned during piston compression which has the OPPOSITE effect than desired.

Man, every NHRA Prostock racer out there is running sky high compression, pushing 16:1, on VP-C25.

Quote:

At low RPM's, slower burn is better. As RPMs increase, less fuel has time to burn on compression stroke and more power is produced with remaining fuel after TDC.
Again, keep in mind this a$$umes all things are equal. You can retard timing at low RPMs to counteract, but remember: the higher the compression ratio, the more energy the pistion bleeds on the compression stroke.

Sure they have variable timing but that is a given. Compression is good, octane and cooling are the limiters as to how much compression you can run, but more is always better for HP. Suzy has the patent on the TSCC head and it works better the more you squeeze it, ask someone like Byron Hines. Grin

Also 8:1 practically sucks. If decking the jug will move the cam a little I don't think it will hurt perf much.
Back in the day when EPA 1st started killing compression, smart guys were tweaking the valve overlap to effectively bump up compression too, but w/ our air-cooled 650, I would expect problems to arrive as you approach 10:1, on a streeter. Remember (cylinder) volume is cubed the as dimensions go up. Think the 650's OHC will suffer w/ the extra heat as opposed to a pushrod OHV (HD) design.
Come to thinkof it, how many bikes today have similar swept volume that are OHC AND air cooled as opposed to water cooled? Now I gotta go look...
Recall how the original GSX-R was oil (not water) cooled 8)

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barry68v10

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Re: pistons again!
Reply #55 - 04/07/07 at 05:07:43

Quote:

Man, every NHRA Prostock racer out there is running sky high compression, pushing 16:1, on VP-C25.

Now we're not even talking apples-to-oranges, let alone apples-to-apples.

First, most if not all engines running excess of 12.5:1 are not running gasoline. They almost always run alcohol.

Second, they have cams with such CRAZY valve overlap that on the compression stroke air is being pushed out the intake AND exhaust valves at rpm's below 4000, effectively reducing the actual compression ratio significantly.

Added to that, they run MUCH richer mixtures than any of us prolly want to run, especially if your paying $7+ per gallon on racing fuel.

Low compression is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when you consider the extremely inferior pump gas we are forced to live with...but that's just my 2 cents worth Grin

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barry68v10 Serious Thumper Offline Posts: 955 Maryland Gender:	Re: pistons again! Reply #56 - 04/07/07 at 05:12:55 One final thought... Any engine SHOULD be designed specifically for the type of use and the fuel it will burn. Reliability should be a consideration. If you want to win races, reliability can take a back seat, but who wants to push their bike home, even occasionally?
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justin_o_guy

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Re: pistons again!
Reply #57 - 04/07/07 at 10:31:43

What happens if the thing fries halfway thru a turn & locks up? A fellow might not even be in good enough shape to walk, much less push. I don't see going over 9:1. I think the way to get performance out & keep reliability would be to give it a bit of a bore, not as far as it can go, just a bit, & a bit more compression, nothng big, say .5 to .75 to 1 increase, port both ends of the head, single wall header, work on the intake( aire box & filter) I prefer the Supertrapp for its tunability. I think this aproach will give a good bit more of a ride & still not stress the tranny & lower end too far. Now, understand, I havent even LOOKED inside the tranny. For all I know it is overbuilt & will take a good bit more horsepower thru it before it starts breaking. I don't know about the bottom end either. I have seen some with tons of miles on them & dont know if they were rebuilt, but from the looks I would say not likely. Maybe this thing will take the punishment of more power, but the power pulses coming from such a high compression as 10:1 I would think would destroy it.
Now, consider the gas law rule PV=NRT where pressure x volume = moles x Gas law constant x TEMPERATURE. When the pressure is doubled so is temperature. So, if compression is raised from 8;1 to 10;1, the pressure is increased by 25%, so the temp will do the same. Not the temp from combustion, just the temp from compression. I dont know how that affects combustion temp, but I expect it to run the same direction.

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barry68v10

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Re: pistons again!
Reply #58 - 04/07/07 at 11:31:23

I think this engine will relatively efficiently handle about 50 hp as far as cooling capacity goes. What does Lancer's setup run? There are a handful of 650 thumpers out there running roughly this power output. The DR650, BMW GS650, and Honda KLX650 to name a few...Also, I think someone around here is running higher compression, but I can't remember how high. That may also be Lancer...

I think in the three examples above (all air cooled, except the DR650 which is air/oil cooled) the compression ratio is between 9.0 and 9.5:1. But keep in mind, all the other three examples have shorter strokes. I would have to agree with Justin, that 9.0:1 is the highest you can SAFELY go with this engine.

Some on this site have gone thru the tranny and suggested it doesn't look beefy enough to handle much more power, but again I can't remember off-hand who's said that.

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Mr 650

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Re: pistons again!
Reply #59 - 04/07/07 at 11:45:24

93 octane is common round here, so 9.5:1 would be OK, some places I have been to only have like 91 octane. Looking at current production lineups I find no bigger OHC cylinders that remain air cooled. Current EPA regs must factor into that. I think the old Gold stars were 10:1, but that was in the days of lead.
http://www.batterystuff.com/fuel-treatments/

barry68v10 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:04:

One final thought...

Any engine SHOULD be designed specifically for the type of use and the fuel it will burn. Reliability should be a consideration. If you want to win races, reliability can take a back seat, but who wants to push their bike home, even occasionally? Undecided

Grab the clutch real fast! Grin

justin_o_guy wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:04:

What happens if the thing fries halfway thru a turn & locks up? ...

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SilverBlue '01,K&N,Snorklectomy,125mm NOS carb, 1/2 spacer & 155, 'Trapp, NC flyscreen, Suzy GelSeat, Osram H4
later..putt. Putt, PUtt, PUTT! 8)
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