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Deck Height? (Read 6 times)
LesGolden
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Deck Height?
04/04/07 at 07:12:35
 
I don't suppose anyone knows the deck height on these singles?  Or maybe has their head off and can measure the clearance from piston crown at tdc to the top of the cylinder?  I know i keep pushing it, i just really want to get this group order for pistons in...  I wanna go fast!  I wanna go fast!!
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vroom1776
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #1 - 04/04/07 at 08:25:20
 
this bike will never be "fast."  If you want to go "fast," buy a kawasaki ZX14R.  or a triumph oh gawd darn, their 2300 cc cruiser, and istall a turbo (or is it a super) charger kit.  That kit comes with a tombstone.

We can definitly make them faster, but they'll never be "fast."  Quick yes.  "fast," no.

But I agree.  I want to be faster and quicker.
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smokin_blue
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #2 - 04/04/07 at 09:53:26
 
Les, I have a spare cylinder and piston I just bought used.  It has some residue above the point of where the rings ride so I should be able to slide the piston in to this point and take a rough deck height measurement.  This will comfirm if we are working with 8mm or 4mm as previously bantered around.  

We will still need a firm number off a semi-assembled engine.

I don't want to go fast as much as I want to go fast..fast! Grin

(If I really needed to really go fast I would have left my streetfighter geared for 160) Wink
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LesGolden
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #3 - 04/04/07 at 14:59:24
 
Aw heck, I was just quotin' "Talledega Nights".  Getting this bike to 50 horse would be plenty for me, really just wantin' to work on something and there's no cheaper bike to speed up than the one your ridin'.  Unless of course you break it trying to "improve it".  Which I'm prone to...  Oh well gotta scratch the itch.
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vroom1776
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #4 - 04/04/07 at 16:21:23
 
hey Les,

wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything... just trying to point out that we'll never be as fast as sport bikes...

Lancer's at about 42 HP or so at the wheel, with a good carb, 96 mm piston, good pipe, and mild cam regrind.  50 MIGHT be doable with some serious head & valve work, too.  The bike comes from the facotry w/ about 30, so a 50 HP savage = 166% HP.  That's a lot.  But then again, there are V* 1100s (factory = 50) pushing 100 ponies...  but they've been making hot rod parts for the V* for nearly 30 years (virago engine = V*1100 engine).

as someone on Bert Heise's now regrettably dead forum once wrote me,  "Why did you marry Erma Bombeck if you wanted to marry racquel welch?"

http://www.llywelyn.net/images/authors/bombeck.jpg" alt="" title="" border="0" />



http://images.art.com/images/products/small/10102000/10102113.jpg" alt="" title="" border="0" />
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LesGolden
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #5 - 04/04/07 at 18:48:52
 
Nothin' wrong with good natured ribbing, these'll never touch sport bikes, maybe sports cars though...  And that 50 horse number comes in about the same place as the breakin' stuff.  I was plannin' on the carb, cam, port, polish, 97mm 10:1, shot peened rod, exhaust built to the motor flow (found a few calculators for lengths), open intake and uh..  i've been workin' on a fiveish horse nitrous shot...  hence the rod...  and the breaking..  I don't know though, a mild shot on 105 with an oil cooler (what are those two oil plug bolts for?) might be ok.. still only about 50 horse total....

Oh and just cause everyone's not tryin' to ride off on Erma don't mean she aint a hot rod.  Grin
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vroom1776
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #6 - 04/04/07 at 19:37:45
 
Les,

I agree 100% with your last post, except the parts I don't undestand.

Sports cars, stop light to stop light: YES!  They've little chance against I even a mildly stock savage, at least IMO.

The 50 HP thing seems about right.

"I was plannin' on the carb, cam, port, polish, 97mm 10:1, shot peened rod  WTF? never heard of this, exhaust built to the motor flow (found a few calculators for lengths), open intake and uh.."

My GUESS is that a 5 HP shot of nitrous won't blow the head.  Maybe 8?

okay, oil cooler... if you add an oil cooler, I don't think there will be enough oil pressure to keep oil up at the rocker arms.  I will post on this later.

more...

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LesGolden
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #7 - 04/04/07 at 20:44:20
 
shot peening the connecting rod, strengthens the rod quite a bit, it's sorta like sandblasting with really big sand (theres a few different media). it hammer forges the rod creating little dimples all over this compresses any imperfections on the surface lessening the posibility of a split forming, and the concave shape of the dimples increases strength all in all, transfering the stress over a larger surface area....  at least i think this is right..
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You just gotta take the high road
Leave old lovers on the low
Raise your face and smile baby
There's somewhere you gonna go...
on your ls650
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #8 - 04/04/07 at 21:37:39
 
You got it mostly right Les.
Shot peening refers to a 'work hardening' technique to strengthen the material.
Think of 'shot' like what used in your shotgun.
And 'peening' like a ball peen hammer.
They use an air gun to shoot the (in this case) rod to remove any surface imperfections, fill in any pits or cracks and compress the surface.  Removing surface imperfections is important when fatique failure is a possibility.  Little cracks can become big ones fast, but if you have no cracks to begin with, they are really hard to start.   Grin
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vroom1776
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #9 - 04/06/07 at 13:45:33
 
some more:

Okay, I stole this vrom the V*1100 forum.  An ORK is an oil filter relocation kit, which folks like to put on their stars b/c, in stock form, you have to remove the exhaust pipe to change the oil filter.  Anyway, the main point is that the stock oil pump doesn't have enough power to get oil to the cams w/ extra volume:

"Here ya go,...My opinion on ORK's... This opinion is based on seeing, touching and holding damaged cams in my own hands. Also, since I seem to be the only guy producing a oil pressure gauge/kit for the 1100 and have tested the pressure to the heads with and without the ORK's installed.

<<I don't use them on any of my bikes and wouldn't. Flat out every kit I've tested to date lower the bikes oil pressure flow to the heads. They can cause dry start up and that's no matter what size oil lines are run.
 The fact is you are just as likely to damage your stock cams with a oil re-lo kit installed as you could damage a performance cam. I've seen it first hand many of times when the stock cores were sent back to us that had been damaged from oil starvation from these kits. There's no difference between the stock cam and a performance cam that requires them to get or need any more or less oil than stock cam does.
 Anyone that say's that they've run one of these kits and have'nt had a problem,... I have to ask, have you pulled your cams and had them checked???? >>

With the installation of performance cams you are again changing airflow thru the engine by changing the lift and duration you alter the opening and closing of the valves. A valve spring installation would help performance as well but, they are not necessary for the 420 lift. The concern with lift, is spring bind, we felt the 420 lift was the maximum safe lift before the risk of spring bind. This was just not our opinion it was the cam manufactures opinion as well. We sent our heads out to our cam company as well as RD-Spring to have these cams and valve spring kits built to spec. They are the only cams build for the V-star on the market. The cams offered from WebCam are and were designed for the Yamaha TT-500 dirt bike not the V-Star. We also felt that the WebCam 440 lift cams required valve springs and higher compression for them to perform properly.

To date we have not had one cam failure due to our product,...There have been a few failures due to human error with the installation and timing of the cams. Our cams are basically designed after cams used for the Virago and have 20 year proven track record behind them.

Hope you come on board...
Thanks
Shane"

Link to thread

link to shane's site,sscustomcycle

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vroom1776
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #10 - 04/06/07 at 14:09:43
 
When I eventually have to split the case, I will likely have the crank balanced for 1500 or 2500 rpm.

another thing to think about is that the stock engine is perfectly "square," i.e. bore = stroke.  changing the bore will change the response of the engine (how flat the torque curve is).  I THINK doing this will make the engine "oversqaure," moving more torque to lower rpms, but I'm not sure.  maybe some one with more experience can comment.
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barry68v10
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #11 - 04/06/07 at 15:21:52
 
Vroom, more displacement will give you more torque, especially at lower (relatively) rpms.  This assumes we are talking about the same intake and exhaust flow...

As rpms build the cylinder will fill less efficiently.  In our case, others on this site have asserted that a stock Savage will build HP thru 6000+ rpms.  Let's take 6000 rpms as a HP peak for the ease of calculation.  A 10% increase in displacement (that's huge and would make the Savage 717 ccs) would mean that at 6000 rpms, our engine requires 10% more flow than it did before.  That's no big deal until you reach the upper limits of the design flow capability.  However, the increased displacement should still allow you to gain a little more HP.  In any case, you should see more HP and torque across the rpm band range.  You are correct that low rpm torque will have the most dramatic improvement.

With the Savage engine, a 97mm piston will give you 694.5 cc's.  (Up from 652 cc's)  Not quite a 10% increase.
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vroom1776
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #12 - 04/06/07 at 15:31:14
 
and that is exactly my point.  the torque curve will no longer be flat.  Stroke time?   Roll Eyes

nonflat torque curves are one of the things that make sport bikes so dangerous to people who are clueless.  Now, on the other hand, it's a totally different response.  when those suckers hit 6k rpm, the bike goes crazy, building all its HP all of a sudden.

so with a "bump" in the torque curve down at low rpms, you egt more power down low, then, well, not less, but less response (not dangerous).
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LesGolden
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #13 - 04/06/07 at 17:43:54
 
Now if we shortened the stroke a little bit, that would change the character of the engine.  97mm bore with a 88mm stroke, that would prolly give a 8000rpm limit with the crankshaft well balanced and lighter internals..  mm...  of course, it would have that high rpm spike then, no smooth linear power anymore!  well... i guess the savage isn't exactl linear... kind of reverse of a small 4....
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You just gotta take the high road
Leave old lovers on the low
Raise your face and smile baby
There's somewhere you gonna go...
on your ls650
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Re: Deck Height?
Reply #14 - 04/06/07 at 20:33:43
 
vroom1776 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:04:
okay, oil cooler... if you add an oil cooler, I don't think there will be enough oil pressure to keep oil up at the rocker arms.  I will post on this later.
more...


I would like an oil cooler for these summers - however I too am concerned about the additional load the cooler places on a rather low pressure oil system - we have a couple folks that wanted to pilot the idea - I'm waiting to see how it goes.
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