SuzukiSavage.com - Clutch Slippage

Savage_Rob Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Mechanically Inclined Amateur Posts: 6972 Texas (Dallas area) Gender:	Re: Clutch Slippage Reply #15 - 09/20/06 at 12:40:28 Okay, after several days riding with Mobil 1 (motorcycle specific synthetic), I've decided it feels about the same as it did with the Maxum 4 Extra (motorcycle specific synthetic). I'm going with Reelthing's idea and changing the springs. Lancer is getting me a set from Barnett which I'll install shortly after I get 'em.
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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 6092 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: Clutch Slippage Reply #16 - 09/20/06 at 15:52:21 and only 8k on the od?? let us know what it looks like once you get it open...good luck!
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Savage_Rob

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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #17 - 09/20/06 at 21:41:02

I'm inclined to agree with what I understood Reelthing to be talking about. While mileage is probably a better indication of plate wear, age alone can account for a large part of spring life. Since the bike is a 98, it's entirely possible that the springs have become compressed and lost tension and that either shimming them with washers or replacing them (or both) will correct it. I'll replace the springs. While I'm in there, I'll inspect the plates and compare the new springs to the old ones.

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Reelthing

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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #18 - 09/21/06 at 06:55:42

That is the thinking, these springs are as much or more effected by time and number of flexes as they are miles. If you rode long distance all the time with fewer stops it would seem to me the clutch would last just about forever but the springs are a different matter as they are doing the same work if the bike is rolling down the road or parked with extra work when you shift and if your shifting alot your not running miles up on the bike either. In this case with the carb change you're making more umph at lower rpms as the amal is mech slide instead of vac and it stands to reason it needs a bit more pressure on the plates.

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Savage_Rob Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Mechanically Inclined Amateur Posts: 6972 Texas (Dallas area) Gender:	Re: Clutch Slippage Reply #19 - 09/21/06 at 07:11:05 Yup, yup. I'm on board with that. I thought about the increased torque with the Amal but didn't think about the likely loss of spring tension over time. Thanks for the heads-up on what should've been a logical conclusion on my part. Michael's getting me new springs and I'll see where it goes from there.
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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #20 - 09/21/06 at 08:23:33

You know what Savage_Rob? I am still curious to see what would happen using dino oil. I realize oil has almost no effect on spring tension, but just maybe dino oil will have sufficient drag to stop minor plate slippage.
One thing about Barnett clutch springs you will find is they are thinner than stock ones. I assume/hope they have greater tensile strength. You will also find out the springs sit in a slight recess in the hub, so using shims larger than the recess gives you a little more spring compression.
By shimming your springs you are making another performance mod, so as a reaction to this you should keep a close eye on your clutch cable. It is now under just a little more stress now.

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Savage_Rob Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Mechanically Inclined Amateur Posts: 6972 Texas (Dallas area) Gender:	Re: Clutch Slippage Reply #21 - 09/21/06 at 11:39:03 I was thinking about trying the dino oil but I kinda doubt it would make that much difference. Still, since I don't plan to reuse my (now 5-days used) Mobil 1, I suppose I could drain it now and refill with some Rotella dino juice and run that until I get new springs. I'll consider that a bit, if only for curiosity's sake.
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Savage_Rob

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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #22 - 09/21/06 at 17:16:57

Well, I stopped at the local Sprawl-Mart to pick up some dino oil to give it a shot but they had none made for a bike. The only bike-specific oils there were Mobil 1 10w40 and 20w50 for 4-strokes and a Castrol dino oil for 2-strokes. The only Rotella was 15w40 for diesels. Since I don't know when I'll get by a bike shop, I may not try it before replacing the springs. If I happen to, I'll let y'all know what happens.

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911radioman Ex Member	Re: Clutch Slippage Reply #23 - 09/21/06 at 17:22:32 Rob, the Rotella will work fine for you. That's what I run in my Savage and it loves it.
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Savage_Rob

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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #24 - 09/21/06 at 17:56:34

I was looking around at a lot of opinions on the web and I found some folks that love it in their bikes and some who don't. Some say it cured clutch issues and a few who said it made it worse. One other point is that only about half specified whether they used Rotella dino or synth. The rest left me to guess. One guy stated that diesel oils use additives to suspend soot because diesels soot the oil badly and these additives can get into the combustion chamber and contribute to predetonation in gasoline engines. There was another fellow who said he wrote Shell and got the following response:

Quote:

Mr. xxxxxxx,

Thanks for the opportunity to respond to your inquiry, and thanks for
using Shell products. (and my apologies for the delay in responding)

ROTELLA T SAE 15W-40 and ROTELLA T Synthetic SAE 5W-40 are universal
oils, meeting needs of many 4-stroke gasoline as well as most diesel
engines. They have performance credentials (API Service Categories SL
and CI-4 & CI-4 PLUS) for lubricating both kinds of engines. Consequently, ROTELLA T can be a good choice for four-stroke
motorcycle/ATV engines.

It's best to consult your owner's manual for recommended oil quality. If
your engine manufacturer recommends oil meeting any of these API Service
Categories; CF-4, CG-4, CH-4, CI-4 & CI-4 PLUS, and/or SH, SJ, and SL,
or any earlier but obsolete category, then ROTELLA T may be a good
choice.

ROTELLA T does not contain friction modifiers that are added to many
passenger-car-only-oils, and it does not comply with all requirements of
ILSAC GF-1, GF-2 and GF-3 (the ILSAC oil specifications are often
recommended by many gasoline passenger car engine manufacturers). That
can be good for motorcycle/ATV use. Friction modifiers can upset wet
clutch operation. And the ILSAC requirements limit phosphorus content.
Diesel engines and other engines with highly loaded valve trains, as
well as transmissions, need extra (compared to passenger car engines)
extreme pressure wear protection, which is provided by an additive that
contains phosphorus.

One negative might be where the engine manufacturer recommends oil
meeting JASO requirements. Part of the JASO requirement limits ash
content to 1.2%. Ash content of ROTELLA T exceeds this limit. Oil ash
contributes to combustion chamber and spark plug deposits.

Best Regards,

Greg Raley=20
Tel: +1 281 544 8621=20
Email: Gregory.Raley@shell.com=20
Internet: www.shell.com

It appears the lack of friction modiers is the main reason it seems to work well in wet clutch applications. It's only the last paragraph that gives me pause... though the owner's manual doesn't call for JASO specs. I do have to admit it's very cost effective.

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911radioman

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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #25 - 09/21/06 at 23:03:26

Yeah, it seems that oil definitely evokes a lot of emotion on both sides of the debate. I guess I look at the Savage as it being relatively "old" technology engine-wise, as compared to some of the other choices in bikes/engines out there, and in my mind (feeble as it is LOL) the engine should handle it fairly well.

Might be worth a shot for one oil change though to see if it helps your slippage issue. If it doesn't, I wouldn't think one time of using the Rotella would harm your engine in any significant way.

Just my .02 cents worth on it...

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Savage_Rob

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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #26 - 09/24/06 at 16:43:58

I think I'll probably stick with 100% synthetic for the norm but I went ahead and drained her and filled her up with Rotella T 15w40 just to see if it makes a noticeable difference. I figure it's a cheap and easy experiment that won' hurt and it'll be good to know if it can help in similar circumstances. I'll run that this week and change the springs next weekend.

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thumperclone Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline PGR rider riding with respect Posts: 6092 Grand Junction Colorado Gender:	Re: Clutch Slippage Reply #27 - 09/24/06 at 18:21:21 my owners manual(printed june 2005) shows :10w-40 api sh/sj having the same rating as jaso ma & api sf/sg with no jaso equivalent(side bar there are only 2 jaso t903[oil standard for 4 stroke m.c. and atv]classifications..ma and mb)
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Savage_Rob

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Re: Clutch Slippage
Reply #28 - 09/28/06 at 20:38:15

Okay, I've got 200+ miles on her with the Shell Rotella T and I can say that there is a discernable improvement, though it is slight. I will replace the springs and probably shim them at the same time. I'm hoping for this weekend but several other things have come up that may push it out a bit. If so, I don't mind riding her for another week or two with the Rotella.

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911radioman Ex Member	Re: Clutch Slippage Reply #29 - 09/28/06 at 21:50:58 Even if you decide not to stick with the Shell Rotella, it might be worth considering, say, Castrol GTX 20W-50. The clutch may well like that heavier oil.
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