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Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him. (Read 8 times)
Leo
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Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
10/24/04 at 15:14:03
 
My neighbor rides his '96 LS650 to work.  The other day it died 10 minutes into the 50 minute commute.  He said it just slowly ran out of power and died...NOT like when he runs out of gas  Embarrassed.  Another neighbor is helping me help the owner...he determined the carb was bad and took it to be rebuilt. And now we are trying to get it started again.  Spark plug sparks but no sign of trying to run.  Engine spins fine with the starter.  Decompression thingy engages but the engine spins no slower when it is disconnected.

We suspect low compression as we didn't really have to work too hard when trying to push start it.  Valve lash was checked OK.  Cam is spinning but don't know how to check if it jumped time.

Any help would be appreciated as this is this guy's favorite horse and he's upside down in payments.  

Many thanks!!  Leo
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Max_Morley
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #1 - 10/24/04 at 17:51:16
 
A good starting point on the Savage is trying to run it with the fuel valve in the prime position (lever back) rather than regular or reserve. This will overcome a vaccum leak in the actuating hose, kimked hose or a collasped interior of the hose. These have been documented problems historically as has the fuel valve diaphram and tank cap vent plugging.   If you have decent spark at the plug, odds are extremely low the timing is off. It is fixed by the flywheel key and there has been no documented failures in this area. A sooted up plug insulator will prevent spark from jumping the gap under compression but still check good at the connector/cap. A new plug and fixing the problem is the best bet here. If for some reason the exhaust valves are hanging open then compression would be low and it might not run or run very poorly if you got it started.  max Embarrassed
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Max at Thumper Acres. '96 Savage bagger, '03 Savage w/Cozy sidecar for wifeni.
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Leo
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #2 - 10/24/04 at 18:03:47
 
Thanks Max!!!  (And a big Thank You to Rob who steered me to this board!!  Smiley )

Fuel delivery is OK.  The bowl was/is full and the prime position functions as designed.  Old and new plug spark nicely and nether have an affect on it not starting.

The exhaust decompression actuator (much more technical sounding than "thingy" don't you think?) works as designed and is not holding the valves open.

I suspect something melted down for two reasons...the coloring of the exhasust pipe (much more so than any I've seen on Savage photos) and the relative ease of bump starting.  We'll get a compression gauge soon...anyone know what it should test at?

The bike has a total of 10,000 miles on it.
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Savage_Greg
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #3 - 10/25/04 at 06:41:51
 
The things to remember with any engine problem is that the engine needs 3 things for operation.

Air: proper intake air to be compressed.  No leaks as in intake manifold or carb.  No leaks in compression such as bad rings or valves.  No moisture as in an airbox full of water (need to periodically drain the air box).  Once you  determined that airflow is good...move on.

Fuel: air/fuel at a ratio of around 15 to 1.  Normally if you run out of gas the bike will sputter, buck and die quicky.  It will also restart as soon as you restore the fuel either with the Reserve position or fresh gas.  If there is a carb problem the engine will run poorly, but normally run anyway.  Not just slowly loose power.  Now that the carb is rebuilt, it should have started anyway.  Try a "sniff check" at the tail pipe while cranking it.  If it is getting fuel but not starting, you'll smell gas.  If this is good...move on.

Ignition: This is the tricky one.  It is hard to tell a weak spark from a good spark.  You can see a spark but that may not be good enough for ignition.  As Max said, for the timing to be out would be unusual.  The CDI pickup and the rotor are fixed positions.  They won't change easily, and I haven't heard of anyone having this happen.  However, I think that the problem lies with the ignition and the electrical system.

You said that valve clearance is okay.  That means that you've watched the valves operate while manually turning the engine over.  Right?  That means that you have also gone by the book on positioning the crank at TDC with the bolt on the left side of the crankshaft.  Right?  There is a painted line on that bolt and it should be at the 3:00 position on the compression stroke when adjusting the valves.  That is what you have done, right?  If that is correct, then the valves and cam chain have not jumped timing.  If the chain jumped, the position would be higher up like 1:00, I do believe.  Just to check...turn the crank to the 3:00 position with the bolt.  Both the intake and exhaust valves should be completely closed....if this is right, move on.

You didn't mention any oil smoke when the engine died.  Was there any?  Burned valves or rings will produce gray smoke, and this is usually a condition that you'll see well in advance of the engine failing to run.  No smoke?  Without a gage you can get a reasonable feel for the compression by installing the plug and turning the engine with a socket and breaker bar on that crankshaft bolt again.  Turn the left side rotor bolt counter clockwise (always).  It should get hard to turn towards TDC and then spring forward after TDC.  How did it feel?  If it wasn't smoking and there is some compression...move on.

Where are we?  Back to ignition/ electrical system problem.  This is where I think the problem lies.  If your charging system has a problem and the ignition totally draws on the battery, then the bike will slowly loose power and die.  It is time to make sure that you have a good battery.  A full charge and it might also be good to have it load checked for current too.  You can be fooled by a battery that has an internal problem.  Sometimes it can read 12 volts even when bad.  Then start checking the fuses under the right side of the seat.  Check all the cables for wear or shorting.  Follow them all the way to the alternator cover if necessary (take off the front pulley cover).  You may even have to remove the alternator cover so be prepared to get a new gasket.  Check the ignition unit under the left side cover.  Check all connectors.  Check the starter relay under the seat.  Maybe even remove the tank and check the harnesses under there too.  Check the ignition coil while there too.  And oh yeah, check that silly little kill switch to make sure it isn't shorted to ground.

Somewhere in all this the bike should start again.  Going by what "you said that he said" happened, this is the best that I can come up with.  Good luck.
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Savage_Greg
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #4 - 10/25/04 at 06:59:49
 
I forgot to mention...if you get the bike started AND it does have a charging problem you'll notice that the horn won't operate well and the head lights will be dim while it is running.  Then you'll need to check the alternator output at the battery with a meter.  That will be around 14 volts at 5000 rpms, I believe...somewhere in that area.
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Leo
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #5 - 10/25/04 at 09:52:56
 
We'll try the sniff check tonight...the nature and quality of the carb 'rebuild' are an unknown and no mixture may still be a factor.  As much as we cranked it I don't recal the smell of gas...and in retrospect probably should have.

Valves operate but haven't used the paint marks yet...thanks for the info here.   Will use those tonight.

The bike died going down the highway.  The owner noticed he was twisting the throttle more and more to stay at the same speed and with no more throttle remaining, started slowing down.  As near as I can get him to describe, this took 10 seconds before he pulled in the clutch and coasted off an exit with a silent engine.  He's run out of gas before and said this was different.

Will check compression tonight as well.  There is some but we we able to get the motor cycling through in 1rst gear with just him sitting (not bouncing) on the seat (he's ~160lbs) and me pushing...I was expecting a harder time.

Thanks for the help so far and I'll post more as I find it.
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Savage_Greg
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #6 - 10/25/04 at 10:59:16
 
Leo wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:10:
We'll try the sniff check tonight...the nature and quality of the carb 'rebuild' are an unknown and no mixture may still be a factor.  As much as we cranked it I don't recal the smell of gas...and in retrospect probably should have.


There is so little to a carb rebuild that I can't imagine that being screwed up.  With the carb you can be rich or lean and still run.  Did you check the bowl drain to be sure gas was in the bowl?

Quote:
Valves operate but haven't used the paint marks yet...thanks for the info here.   Will use those tonight.


In the unlikely event that the paint mark is gone, there is also a very small notch and line that needs to be at 3:00.

If you didn't use the paint marks, you may wish to re-adjust those valves because you could have adjusted them at BDC instead of TDC.  What clearance did you set?

Also, be careful not to crack the slotted cover to get to the rotor bolt.  Take that from experience Shocked

Quote:
The bike died going down the highway.  The owner noticed he was twisting the throttle more and more to stay at the same speed and with no more throttle remaining, started slowing down.  As near as I can get him to describe, this took 10 seconds before he pulled in the clutch and coasted off an exit with a silent engine.  He's run out of gas before and said this was different.


You didn't smell gas and it didn't act out of gas.  That's why I don't suspect the carb.

Quote:
Will check compression tonight as well.  There is some but we we able to get the motor cycling through in 1rst gear with just him sitting (not bouncing) on the seat (he's ~160lbs) and me pushing...I was expecting a harder time.

Thanks for the help so far and I'll post more as I find it.

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Ed L.
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #7 - 10/25/04 at 16:03:24
 
Try pulling the plug, dribbling a few drops of gas in the hole, putting the plug back in and seeing if it starts for a second. If it does then you problem is the in carb or pet-coc-k. Sounds almost like a plugged up fuel filter or fuel starvation. Pull the float bowl and check for water or dirt in it. Good luck
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AL_DOWN_UNDER
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #8 - 10/25/04 at 23:44:38
 
ED I HAD A STARTER PROBLEM A WHILE AGO AND BY MYSELF I COULD NOT PUSH START MY SAVAGE I JUST GAVE UP TO HARD. THE ONLY WAY I  COULD PUSH START IT WAS TO DISENGUAGE THE STARTER AND PRESS THE STARTER SO IT ENGAUGED THE DECOMPRESSION UNIT BUT I STILL COULD NOT GET THE SPEED UP BY MY SELF AND IT HAD ABOUT 35 K ON IT AT THE TIME. Undecided
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sunny
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #9 - 10/26/04 at 09:40:24
 
maybe it's the petc o c k. it has rubber parts inside that do decay.
and you say prime works fine. is the vacuum hose attached properly to the petc o c k?
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Savage_Greg
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #10 - 11/02/04 at 04:57:19
 
Okay.  What happened?

Is the neighbor's bike still dead?
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Leo
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Re: Neighbor's '96 died...help me help him.
Reply #11 - 11/02/04 at 09:44:44
 
Apologies for not updating.

We didn't get to do the sniff test so I still suspect the operation of the carb...though there was, and still is, plenty of flow to, and into the float bowl.

Getting it running again is as much of a concern as what caused it to quit and the possible damage that situation caused.

The header is much bluer than I've seen in other's photos of their bike.  The muffler is also blue just aft and under the heat sield by the right peg and there is some blueing towards the outlet of the muffler as well.  This may be normal as he rides this to work each day, about 30 miles each way.

But of more concern is the lack of compression.  In reading other's accounts (on this forum) of bump starting, the needed bounce of butt weight to add traction to the rear wheel, our situation is different and much easier.

As we are at an apartment complex our ability to do any involved troubleshooting is limited and done at the risk of the property management's discovery.  Saturday the bike was taken back to the point of purchase for their assesment and (hopefully) warranty service.  It may be a couple of days before they get to it and make their diagnosis.

Many thanks for all of the replies and suggestions.  I'll post as soon as we hear of something!
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