SuzukiSavage.com - German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash

LUPUS0801

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German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
09/09/04 at 04:58:12

Hi LS-Drivers,

have a look to the german savage forum via www.ls650.de -> forum

or direct:

http://www.ls650.de/forum/main/YaBB.cgi

It ist full in german language. But many people can talk and understand english.

And if there are enough english speaking people we will open international rooms too and make the navigation switchable between english and german

Btw:

Translator wanted for techical projectdocumentation from german to english. It is a electric circuit to prevent the backlash of the LS-motor when switching off the engine. This backlash is often crashing the starting mechanics.

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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash Reply #1 - 09/09/04 at 05:45:48 You certainly speak better English, than my German. Danke.
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LUPUS0801 YaBB Newbies 2004 No Login Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 8	Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash Reply #2 - 09/09/04 at 08:32:36 thanks
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Mr 650

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #3 - 09/09/04 at 09:02:07

I do not speak mucho german, but I always wanted to do a tour of Germany that ended each day w/ a different local beer(s). Now they got that Chunnel, so when we tried all the German brews, we could ride our Savages over to Great Britain and do the same tour there.
We would wind up north to Orkney http://www.orkneybrewery.co.uk/products.htm and get some fresh Skull Splitters there, then ferry on to the land O' Guinness
Let's go!

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Savage_Greg

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #4 - 09/09/04 at 09:45:54

Mr 650 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:09:

I do not speak mucho german, but I always wanted to do a tour of Germany that ended each day w/ a different local beer(s). Now they got that Chunnel, so when we tried all the German brews, we could ride our Savages over to Great Britain and do the same tour there.
We would wind up north to Orkney http://www.orkneybrewery.co.uk/products.htm and get some fresh Skull Splitters there, then ferry on to the land O' Guinness
Let's go!

And don't forget the Haufbrauhaus in Munich....here's a Weisbier to you, too. 8)

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LUPUS0801

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #5 - 09/09/04 at 10:05:31

Hi,

if you drive in Southgermany between Munic and Stuttgart I will give you some goof adresses of "beerhouses"

Best will be to ask in www.ls650.de direct. There are some hundred Savagedrivers vom South to North where you can make stops or ask for good locations to eat, drink and sleep.

Most drivers are "mapped" in the drivermap of the Forum.

DLzG
Wolfgang

Question: In germany bikers great with the left hand. Therefore "DLzG". "D"ie "L"inke "z"um "G"russ. Means: The left for greeting.

How do you do?

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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash Reply #6 - 09/09/04 at 10:27:39 We also greet, when riding, with our left hand too.
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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #7 - 09/09/04 at 10:30:57

LUPUS0801 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:09:

Hi LS-Drivers,

have a look to the german savage forum via www.ls650.de -> forum

or direct:

http://www.ls650.de/forum/main/YaBB.cgi

It ist full in german language. But many people can talk and understand english.

Looks like a nice forum. Unfortunately I do not speak German. French, a little Italian, a little Spanish, a little Russian, a little Arabic but no German.

P.S. What do you mean by "stop the backlash"? I am sorry to say I don't understand what you mean...

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LUPUS0801

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #8 - 09/09/04 at 11:09:00

Hi Susan

>Looks like a nice forum. Unfortunately I do not speak

Same like this - but personalized with many features.

>German. French, a little Italian, a little Spanish, a little
>Russian, a little Arabic but no German.

It doesn't matter. There are many people with good english. And some french and other languages. The forumsoftware self will be selectable german/english in a few days.

>P.S. What do you mean by "stop the backlash"? I am
>sorry to say I don't understand what you mean...

If you switch of the engine the motor can not do the very last turn and turns a little backwards. This works aganist the "freerun-gears" (i don't know the correct word) of the startermotor. "Wrommmm". An this crashes many gears, starters and motorcovers. You hear this terrible noise often when you stop the engine. Newer american models of the savage habe a "stronger" material in this part oft the motor. But the same problem.

To stop this "backlash" i designed a little and simple electric circuit to open the dekompressionvalve for a little moment when the engine stops. In the same short manner when the motor is startet. And the motor does not turn backwards in the last round.

See: http://savagedriver.tripod.com/

or the german thread under:

http://www.ls650.de/forum/main/YaBB.cgi?board=ID-Technik-Elektrik;action=disp...

This is the complete description in german. And i search somebody to translate it in a better english than mine is.

Not the complete thread, only the tripod-page or part of it. And eventually some additions.

Have a look to the pictue (click on it) - an you see some damaged tooth.

tlfg
Wolfgang

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #9 - 09/10/04 at 01:03:37

I am very interested in this "backlash" thing, it's potential problem and it's cure ... maybe the translation from german could be posted on thsi thread?
I've noticed ever since I got my '03 LS650 that when either using the kickstand or kill-switch to turn off the engine, there a second of whining after the engine stops, like something still spinning ... is this the so-called "backlash"?
Funny, I've never heard of it before, nor have I seen/heard of anyone complain of this potential problem on any of the other Savage Forums?

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #10 - 09/10/04 at 01:39:41

Interesting,
Have I missed something ?
I do get the occasional shut-off "fart" if the motor is well heated.
Never noticed the starter kicking back, but would bet it hammers the bendix if'n it does.
About a 1.5 sec off delay from the ignition to the compression release should fix it (?)
I remember the 70's leaned-out carbs "running backward" onshut-off.
Sounds like the starter drive is ratcheting after "motor run-on", like the old 70's auto carbs used to do
(review Uncle Buck movie).
If she spins backwards the euro version must be snagging the starter drive?
This is the 1st complaint I have seen.
Is the euro Savage different or the is USA version different?? compression ratio? Gasoline? Any likewise Kalifornia probs?

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SilverBlue '01,K&N,Snorklectomy,125mm NOS carb, 1/2 spacer & 155, 'Trapp, NC flyscreen, Suzy GelSeat, Osram H4
later..putt. Putt, PUtt, PUTT! 8)
HelmetLawsSuck

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LUPUS0801

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #11 - 09/10/04 at 01:58:08

Hi,

>I am very interested in this "backlash" thing, it's potential
>problem and it's cure ... maybe the translation from
>german could be posted on thsi thread?

We had a complete very long thread in my german forum. This is a very long story. An the result ist the "Antiklack"-Thread. The original first discussion thread is no longer available. I have deleted it by error instead of "moving" to the archive.

We had a member namend Norbert who is a mechanican and had repaired many "broken" motorstartingmechanics. This problem is very well known in Germany. Even discussed in newsgroup: de.rec.motorrad

Even Suzuki knows. But they do nothing to stop the backlash. Only that newer USA-models have some modified parts to minimize the damages.

It would be very easy to change the little startcontrolbox to the same that my external elektik now does.The box has the wiring, the relais, timers and so on. But only works when starting the engine. If it would work 1 second even when stopping the motor we would have no problems.

>I've noticed ever since I got my '03 LS650 that when
>either using the kickstand or kill-switch to turn off the
>engine, there a second of whining after the engine stops,
> like something still spinning ... is this the so-called
>"backlash"?

Yes - i heard it seven years and did not think about. Until i heave heard of broken gears and damaged Motorcovers!

The startingmotor is fixed coupled over a "freerun"-clutch direct to the motor. Like the pedals of a simple bicycle to the rear wheel. If the wheel ist faster than the pedals nothing happens. The pedals can stop. The wheel is running. But when the wheel turns back, the pedals go backwards!

After starting the engine the startermotor stops When the engine is stopping and turns back up to one half turn or more, this "freerun"-clutch connects suddenly with a hard crash because the startermotor ist standing and has to be accelerated.

Than Norbert had the idea to open the decrompessionvalve when stopping the engine. No compression > no backlash. Easy!

And i did the elektric. Very simple. The "control" takes the last "Volts" from the generator "after" swiching off the ignition. The coil of the decompressionmagnet works for about 0,5 to 1 second after the last turn of the Motor. The time is depending on the relais and the capacitor.

>Funny, I've never heard of it before, nor have I
>seen/heard of anyone complain of this potential problem
>on any of the other Savage Forums?

I have seen many fotos of broken gears an broken sidecovers of the motor. There breaks out a whole for the startingmotor-axle. This part of the covert is stronger now in the newer USA-models.

But the backlashing power is still working againts the gears and tooth.

Ok - there is a complete story in german how to build the "antiklack" on the tripod side.

http://savagedriver.tripod.com

Is there somebody to translate this together with me? And than we can put a new englisch story in this forum here or in my german forum? Or on a tripod page.

In germany i sell complete materalkits or complete kits ready for installing. Not as business - only for selfcosts.

I don't want do to this outside of europe.

I think that here are enough people who can do the same for friends. I will help for the first steps.

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #12 - 09/10/04 at 03:41:16

Mr 650 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:09:

Interesting,
Have I missed something ?
I do get the occasional shut-off "fart" if the motor is well heated.
Never noticed the starter kicking back, but would bet it hammers the bendix if'n it does.
About a 1.5 sec off delay from the ignition to the compression release should fix it (?)
I remember the 70's leaned-out carbs "running backward" onshut-off.
Sounds like the starter drive is ratcheting after "motor run-on", like the old 70's auto carbs used to do
(review Uncle Buck movie).
If she spins backwards the euro version must be snagging the starter drive?
This is the 1st complaint I have seen.
Is the euro Savage different or the is USA version different?? compression ratio? Gasoline? Any likewise Kalifornia probs?

This is the problem that he is discussing. It basically occurs just as the engine approaches TDC on the compression stroke, simultaneously with the engine ignition going off. The "red" arrows show the normal rotation of the engine and starter gears. After the engine starts, the starter gears just "idle" on the starter clutch.

The "Backlash" is shown in the "yellow". This happens if the piston sort of "bounces" backwards when the ignition is turned off. But because the starter clutch engages in that direction, the force is transmitted through all these gears that don't turn (all the reduction ratios to the starter)

This is also something that wouldn't happen in a multi-cylinder engine because of inertial forces exerted from the other pistons.

It doesn't do it all the time, but I think his idea of a compression release at that moment is very good.

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PerrydaSavage

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #13 - 09/10/04 at 07:21:57

If this is such a problem on Canadian and US spec LS650's, then how come I've never seen/heard anyone complain of eventual malfunction on any of the internet Savage forums? ... and there are some pretty high-milage and aged Savages out there!
Since my Canadian spec Savage "whirr's" for a second most times that I shut her off, is this something I should be concerned about?
PS, I'm an "electrical moron", so rigging up this gizmo to keep the decompression valve open during shut-down is beyond me for sure ...

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Re: German Savage Forum / Stop the backlash
Reply #14 - 09/10/04 at 09:11:16

PerrydaSavage wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:09:

If this is such a problem on Canadian and US spec LS650's, then how come I've never seen/heard anyone complain of eventual malfunction on any of the internet Savage forums? ... and there are some pretty high-milage and aged Savages out there!
Since my Canadian spec Savage "whirr's" for a second most times that I shut her off, is this something I should be concerned about?
PS, I'm an "electrical moron", so rigging up this gizmo to keep the decompression valve open during shut-down is beyond me for sure ...

First of all, I only tried to explain the concept of the "backlash" because I understand what he's saying. But I haven't really noticed it on mine either, nor have I heard of it happening to others. I almost wonder if it couldn't have something to do with ignition timing and maybe different grades of gasoline.

The electrical aspect is pretty simple because it is more or less just the reverse of what happens when we start the engine normally...that little black box above the carb does it all automatically. Considering that some older dirt bikes used to have a decompression lever, it also wouldn't be too hard to incorporate a kill switch with the lever and do it that way, too.

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