I think it's time that we begin, a meta oil thread. I'm pretty sure it's never been done, I'm absolutely sure that long complex opinionated oil threads have been done to death and will continue to be done to death.

What I'd like this thread to be, is not a personal opinion about oil, but instead, a repository about the very best most informative comments that we have all seen on other oil threads. This has indeed happened on the recent one here, there are always the occasional gems, well not always but often. Or links to absolutely expert opinions or charts or other useful info that is more in the spirit of proper scientific explanations. Even if you don't agree with what you have found, it's enough for it to contain stuff that you think is worthwhile to consider.

What do you think? Could it work? Personally the reason I often wade through to the end of the many threads I've seen is that there will be the occasional gem amongst the opinions. I want to gather these gems in one spot. So this will be the definitive oil thread to end them all, because all the others consists of a lot of useless opinions and a few gems.

I think it's best to post a copy and paste that you think is worthwhile, I don't want to argue about if something is worthwhile, if you think it is then copy and paste, then you can post a link to the thread where it came from if you like. I'll begin to give you an idea what I mean.

I liked the following two posts by the same person from http://tinyurl.com/vfrworld...
Full disclosure: I'm not a tribologist (lubrication, bearings, and wear engineer) but I've spent 38 years as a helicopter test engineer frequently hanging out with them as we tested helicopter drivetrains (using both mineral and sythetic oils).

1. "Rotella is designed for diesel engines only" - yet it meets gasoline engine API specifications SH, SL, SM, and JASO bike spec MA. The concept that life in a gas engine is more severe than a diesel engine belongs in the land between falacious and ludicrous. Rotella is an outsanding oil.

2. "Royal Purple is the only oil on the market that has the proprietary additive blendthat prevents half life from overheating." How could the Honda engineers be so incredibly stupid to design an engine that would only survive on Royal Purple and then so monumentally lucky to have their engines set the industry standard for reliability and longevity when not using Royal Purple? The answer is they didn't. They analyzed and tested to assure excellent life with oils conforming to their requirements spec.

3. "Engines with gear driven cams will shear an oil to death in minutes/seconds/100 miles". (OK; that's paraphrasing but more or less what they said.) The cam drive is one or two additional gear meshes the oil lubricates. At least as much shearing is going on in the transmission with it's bundle of gears. Note: it's the viscosity index improvers (VII) that get sheared. Thus an oil that starts out as a 10W-40 will get beaten down to a 10W-30, then a 10W-20 if used past its useful life. The good thing about synthetics is that they need far fewer VIIs so they are less vulnerable to shear degradation. Hence we change our oil at a reasonable interval, the more compulsive of us send samples to a lab to assure that the used oil was still in spec vicosity range when it was retired.

4. The worry about going back and forthe between mineral and synthetic base oils is becoming overcome by events. Most oils marketed as synthetic in the US new are mostly group III mineral oils. Amsoil is a true synthetic poly-alpha-olefin base, Redline is a sythetic polyesther base; most other "synthetics" are primarily group III with a small blend of PAO or diesther. Thus the question of seal leakage (it was an issue back in 1973) is probably overrated now. Also, group III mineral oil is really good stuff; the performance distinction between a group III mineral oil and a PAO or diesther is nebulous.

5. I'd avoid 15W-anything oil unless you live in a periennially warm climate. 5W and 10W oils really do flow better at lower temperatures. Remember, to your engine, room temperature is "cold". Unless we're talking about something like a 1964 air cooled Norton on old low quality oil, most of your engine wear will be on cold start-up.

6. You are right on about getting your oil tested. That's the way to cut through the BS and deal with facts.

AND

Invisible (or should I call you "Mr. Cities"?):

First of all let me confess that I don't know much about the VF500F beyond the fact that it is a breathtakingly lovely bike. However wading in with what I would do if it were my bike:

1. Use the viscosity Honda recommends. If the manual says 10W-30, use it; ditto if it says 20W-50, 10W-40, or 0W-Infinity.
2. Use a synthetic; I don't know enough to distinguish between brands. All of them are better oils than Honda engine designers dreamed of in 1984. As previously indicated, I wouldn't get hung up over if it's a group III mineral, PAO, or esther base.
3. Watch for tribal knowledge. Every once in a while every manufacturer misses a detail in an engine design which drives a peculiar lubrication need. BMW M3 autos of a certain vintage ended up needing somebody's snazzy (and expensive) oil to address a particular issue. I haven't heard but also haven't been listening to know if the VF500Fs have this kind of history.
4. Drain and flush the cooling system on something approaching Honda's recommended interval. Having goop in the cooling passages can create a local hot spot. The resulting damage in that area that will then often be incorrectly blamed on the lubrication.
5. Sending the used oil to be sampled and cutting open the old oil filter and examining for particles gives additional peace of mind to those of us who should probably be doing something better with our lives.

Best wishes.

PS: Yes; I am old enough that I worked on that particular helicopter, remember the house it's carrying, and knew the pilots.

Or just post links to single documents like this...

http://www.ducatimeccanica.com/oil.html

justin_o_guy2 wrote on 07/17/16 at 08:28:21:


"Wathchu' Talking About Willis?"  What do you mean by a "High Quality, Name Brand Automotive oil?

High Quality, name brand automotive oils can have Friction Modifiers, Moly, and very now ZDDP.  They can cause clutch slippage and ruin cams/lifters.

Feeling tired, listless, can't get excited about riding your bike any longer? You need to read another oil article... http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/oilessay.htm

This is one from left field that will give you much to ponder, including some links that can explain why changing your oil too often can be a bad thing. Did I just read that correctly? Mind => Blown. http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/

Part of my problem with the thread....is that I had never hear the word "Meta" and don't know what it meant.  So I looked it up:

"A meta-analysis is a type of study that uses statistical techniques to analyze the combined results of a series of studies with related hypotheses that have been previously published."  

With that in mind....I am not sure this thread is titled correctly, and it may be misleading.  Is the purpose of this thread to list oil discussions and articles that are "bogus" and "amusing"?  If so.....I believe the Subject line should be changed to reflect that.  As Oldfeller has suggested....somebody might jump into this thread and not understand the humor......and latch onto an oil article that we find amusing, and take it as a fact and recommendation from this forum.

I will wait and see what Verslagen and Serowbot say - but my thought is that at a minimum the title of this thread should me amended to state that it is a "humor" thread....and not intended to provide useful oil information.

Dave

Gizzo, since Rotella T isn't available, what are you using?
I know you have Road Trains. Since Rotella is used in the big trucks here and you definitely have big trucks there, have you, or maybe you are, IDK, considered buying the oil they use in the trucks?

You've got enough there to go on. Finding out more about the contents of each oil and deciding which is best is something you can do. I would bet that you have available something that is every bit as healthy for your Savage as our Rotella..
Those Road Trains hafta be a Serious workout for the engines.
But, like anything else, once it's rolling it rolls out pretty easily. Honest to goodness, rolling on steel wheels on steel rails, thousands of tons roll along with an efficiency that I don't know is matched by anything but sailing ships. Of course, rolling resistance of steel on steel is pretty low.

@Oldfeller I hear you about the ‘transient’ effect but what can you do other than make great posts that lead people to your site, which is what my plan is which I will outline in a mo.

@Dave, all meta really means is data about data, like metadata. Basically it’s not meant to be a discussion thread but a resource thread much like the tech docs. I thought I’d put it in The Cafe, so I could see how it goes, I got a bit disappointed at first because it seems that some folks didn’t ‘get it’ but that’s OK because I’m going to continue with the plan which is just to post links to articles that I have found exceedingly interesting or that contain info that at least has some kind of authority. There’s a couple of examples already and I think that you will agree that the http://papers.sae.org/2007-01-4133/ which is a tech document that needs to be purchased but still there is a preview available that covers the premise that changing oil too often can be a bad thing for reasons that I’ll bet not many people would consider. Is this valid knowledge? I don’t know but it’s some serious academia and hard to find.

You know how the net is one minute you looking at a tutorial teaching you how to spray oil onto bikini models for photoshoots, then before you know it you are in a technical document on some obscure web page reading about the most arcane facts about engine oil. Or maybe that happens the other way, I wouldn’t know because it was only an example.

Anyway, if other people catch on and find some excellent technical data or posts, then the plan would be to eventually cull all these brilliant links and snippets, and then place them into a new tech thread all by themselves with no comments from people, just as a resource. Because of the snippets and links it’s quite possible over time that anyone searching for oil information will be linked to the tech thread on your forum and wa la! you have brought people to your site with good content, and that’s really all you can do. And you can give it a new title when it reaches the tech section. Something ‘more than you ever wanted to know about oil’.

For example I notice there is already Rotela discussion in this thread even though there is a dedicated recent thread on Rotella, but if you had checked out the link earlier http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/oilessay.htm there is some really good words about Rotella.

The point of the whole thing is that it’s best left up to the individual to decide for themselves what information they can trust by reading trustworthy sources and then think about it all themselves.

Anyhoo that’s the general plan, I thought it was a good idea.

Not really counter intuitive, remember the US ARMY oil monitors vehicles and does not change the oil unless antifreeze gets into it from a head gasket leak.   They just monitor the oil twice a year.   Big diesel fleet rigs get the same treatment routinely, they change the oil only if something crops up during a routine oil analysis.

HOWEVER, please consider that these are diesel vehicles with VERY GOOD PARTICULATE CONTROL and most excellent air and oil filtration systems.

Versy and I each separately researched and built exterior oil filtration systems and figured out how to hook them up to the Savage, but we learned our oil pump system lacks both volume and excess oil pressure to supply such systems unless the engine is running at at least half RPM.

Such exterior filtration systems are bulky and potentially ugly looking things, and a potential for an oil pressure loss is inherent in a cobbled up exterior oil filtration system.

My decision was to not install my rig as our remaining real issue with the very long use of oil is silicate contamination over time, which requires you to change the oil about once a year anyway.   Source path for this contamination is fine dust control, which the stock Savage lacks completely.   Really fine dust migrates through paper filter systems over time and contaminates the oil over time.

In short, two quarts of oil once a year was prettier, easier and felt more "normal" to me.

I kept the magnetic iron filtration system I built, and the oil trap filter system for the air box.   Oil gets dumped once a year, synthetic or dino being no different for the dust contamination build up problem.