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Message started by 04Savage04 on 04/16/24 at 16:53:18

Title: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/16/24 at 16:53:18

Well after chasing few things its quite obvious I was taken on this bike I just bought. It has ridiculous loud gear whine on deceleration in any gear. Drives normal otherwise. After I bought it went to change the oil I noticed it was very thick oil and sure enough after changing it this noise got very loud. I also noticed they had the idle sky high so it wouldn't decel in gear. So I got taken on this deal.

Anyone else experience anything like this? I'm assuming it has worn crank bearings etc and the gears are not messing well on decel. Its loud! Honestly I'm not going into the engine but just giggles I like to know anyone has had this type of trouble. What a waste of money on this and there is noway I'm going to rip another rider off with this bike. Gonna list it as primary noise best offer! EFF IT!

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by ThumperPaul on 04/16/24 at 17:29:36

That's a very specific diagnosis. How do you know it's the primary gear? Previous post was about tire clearance being your noise on decel.

The 140/90 tire fits fine. Many Savage owners run 140/90.

For the $1200 you paid, you can expect some issues. What's your mileage? I doubt it's a bad primary gear.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/16/24 at 18:57:55

The rear tire was damaged badly and certainly would have blown soon. 2 of the bolts were wearing hard in the tire with the shocks set at its lowest level. When I pulled the shocks off and raised the rear wheel the bolts jammed against the tire hard enough I couldn't turn it by hand. I opened up the sissy bar 1/4 inch and shaved the bolt heads so only 1/8th inch head is left and now I have about 1/32 clearance. between the bolt head and tire. The tire is way too wide. Some of the noise I was hearing was the bolts grinding against the tire. Now with tire clearance fixed you can clearly hear the primary gear on the right side whining. Can't miss it. I did a search online and found ALOT of similar complaints about it so I'm guessing its normal for this bike. I hope. If you are running a Shinko 140-90 tire best look at the sidewall for damage. Can't miss it, tore up the tire pretty good. The left side of the tire has tons of room between the bolts and tire. 8500 miles

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by Savard 05 on 04/17/24 at 03:47:10

Mine has a slight whine sometimes I'm pretty sure it's the belt might be your case to check the belt is riding mostly even on pulley and check belt tension and maybe even clean the belt oand pulleys debris.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by ThumperPaul on 04/17/24 at 05:49:52

Sounds like someone used different bolts on the back fender and sissy bar. A 140/90 isn’t terrible taller than a 150/80.

150mm x 0.8 = 120mm tall
140mm x 0.9 = 126mm tall

That’s only 6mm (x2, so 12mm total) and the tire is 10mm narrower. I use the 150/80 because that’s what I’ve used before and I’m no where near a clearance problem.

A 140/80 is 112mm tall. So, 14mm x 2 shorter than 140/90.

Agree with Savard 05 - check the belt. Also, check the front belt pulley to make sure it’s not rubbing against the pulley cover. An old S40 I had, the prior owner left out some of the grommets, washers, and spacers and the pulley would rub against the pulley cover. That was more of a grinding sound than a whining sound.

This stuff is hard to figure out without seeing and hearing it firsthand.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/17/24 at 07:15:32

If its normal noise then so be it, not gonna mess with it. The tire height really isn't the trouble its the width on the right side. Its stupid close with this Shinko tire. Maybe the Shinko is wider than other tires the same size. The bolts sure looked factory to me. I talked with the people I bought it from and they simply had it to the dealer for service. Dealer put the heavy oil in and changed the tires! Before I opened up the sissy bar 1/4 inch the fender was 1mm from the tires edge and the entire bolt heads were into the tire when the suspension moved. I'm dam lucky I only drove it a few miles with the shocks all the way down. I'll check out the belt next, I have severe arthritis gonna take a break for a few days my hands swollen badly from yesterdays marathon LOL.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/17/24 at 07:18:22

0024262C3124267122302D22430 wrote:

This isn't a slight whine, iTS LOUD on the right side. I'm doubtful it normal noise but i'm going drive it a few more miles. I'm talking louder than the running engine on decel.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/17/24 at 12:00:01

Your rear tire rub is very interesting. Is there a chance that your rear wheel is off-center? There are four spacers associated with the rear wheel. Two are exposed and two are inside the assembly. The right-side spacer is considerably thinner than the left-side spacer. Is there a chance that these spacers could have been mixed up or left out, resulting in your rear wheel shifting to the right? The right-side spacer should be 22.3mm thick.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/17/24 at 12:02:08

Is there a chance that your bike was involved in an accident? If the swingarm is bent, it can cause the tire to rub. A rub on the right side would result from the left side of the swingarm being higher than the right side.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/17/24 at 12:13:15

Regarding your "Primary Noise". The early models had a primary drive ratio of 36/68 while the late models have a primary ratio of 37/67. It is possible to mix them up (difficult but possible). They will engage almost all the way, then nut will do the rest. I tried to fit them up just to see. It would be ugly, and I can imagine the noise would be impressive. It's easy to check.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/17/24 at 13:53:13

I looked at the spacers and they look like in the proper place. I'm not sure I suspect the primary has been off because there is writing on it in magic marker. I'm gonna have to pull it and at least see if I can find anything. Under acceleration its dead quiet but dam you let off in any gear and you know there is a gear in there. ITS LOUD While I have it off i''ll count the teeth. Its a 04 do you what it should have? I was thinking maybe buy a used set of gear on Fleabay and replace them. Measure the crank end play maybe that's the issue too.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/17/24 at 14:36:25

You should have 37/67. Because you only make noise during deceleration, I suspect your issue is with the final drive, not the primary. But I haven't had the benefit of hearing the noise.

Don't overlook Paul's comment regarding the pulley cover. It's easy to screw up. Easy to check too.

There are thick grommets and thin grommets. The thick ones go on the inside, the thin ones go on the outside. If you reverse them it rubs on the pulley. Makes a lot of noise. To check, just remove the cover and take a short ride. Of course, you need to be careful not to get your pants tangled up in the pulley.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/17/24 at 15:06:59

I will certainly check it out some more but the noise is coming from the right front of the engine. Its that loud its pretty much unmistakable. I don't know what oil they had ion it but it was very thick, maybe rotella and really didn't notice the noise until after I changed it to 10-40 vavoline. I remember thinking why would anyone use such a thick oil in a motorcycle? I'm going to drive it some more and see what it does. I'm interested to see how much end play the crank has, that could easily account for the noise if its excessive.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/18/24 at 07:56:01

After thinking about this over night I think you may have something on the spacing on the rear rim. I noticed the belt hangs to the outside of the rear pulley too. Do you know where I can find a layout diagram of what should be where? Right now the short spacer is on the right side and the longer on the left but you mention a internal spacer. Maybe something funky going on in there. I was surprised to find the tire jamming up against the bolts but so far I can't find any logic in it except the oversize tire.

I also searched online and found quite a few people on this site and others complaining about the exact same whine noise. Heavy whine like a old Jeep only on decel. One post claimed switching to Rotella stopped most of it. They didn't mention which Rotella they used though 4 5 or 6. Honestly next time I buy a bike its going for a extended ride! I got a great deal on it but not having to worry on blowing the rear tire gears etc just aint makin me jump for joy. Makes me very uneasy to drive this after seeing that tire chopped up like that.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/18/24 at 18:35:28

I used a bore scope to try and get a look at the [rimary gear but too much stuff in the way. Gonna pull the cover off tomorrow and check a few things. Probably do something with the cam tensioner while the cover is off.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/19/24 at 09:36:57

Got it pulled apart and sure enough its been worked on before, marks on the primary gear and some of the cover bolts were actually loose. Gonna measure the end play on the crank see what that looks like. Maybe I can find a used primary gear and matching clutch basket. They don't look worn but it obvious someone removed the primary gear on the crank. DAMIT! Wasn't a very good deal at this point as far as noise goes, hopefully it doesn't break before I can sell it off.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/19/24 at 10:37:04

What sort of marks do you see on the primary gears? Would sure be nice if you could post some pics.

Make sure you have your battery disconnected while you are working around those primary gears. These things have a habit of trying to crank on their own. The decomp relays have an issue where they energize the starter without any sort of operator input. You wouldn't want your fingers in there in the event of a relay failure.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/19/24 at 15:49:15

Thanks for letting me know about that. Gears are marked up badly, Cam tensioner must have failed. Both gears look like they ran with something stuck between them. No metal laying inside but when I 1st changed the oil there was lots of glitter in the oil. Also looks like the cam tensioner is new because there is absolutely no wear marks on it at all.Yeah well, if the gears are chewed up everything else in there has some wear on it too. Prolly best to get rid of it soon. Next time its clean bike with service history or no buy. I jumped on this not knowing what issues these savages can get into to at low mileage. Its probably ok to drive, its just noisy but who knows? The trans is very hard to shift too. Hell most jap bikes aren't even broke in at this mileage. Lesson learned movin on Thanks for the help everyone.

Something else they may have replaced the cam chain because there magic marker marks on the primary gears and the crank and nut. And inside the cover someone penned 2 1/2 with a marker?

I wonder if I could getaway with just taking the clutch cover off and using a impact gun to spin the crank nut off without pulling the other side apart to hold the crank? I'm sure I can find the primary gears used someplace.

I found a nice looking gear on fleabay for 15 bucks, I'm willing to try changing it.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by ThumperPaul on 04/19/24 at 18:22:05

Attach a photo.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/19/24 at 18:56:02

I didn't take any hands dirty with oil last thing I'm thinking about is taking pictures, If I go back in to replace the gears I'll take a few of the gears once I get cleaned up. I need to know If I can simply use a impact on the crank or must I remove the other side to hold it. If anyone knows please post up. It really wasn't much to pull the cover so I'm willing to go as far as replacing the 2 gears if I can buy a used set that were run together. So Far i'm only finding seperate pieces. I really do like this bike so it would be nice to save it. I looked at whole engines but I can only find nasty looking junk on fleabay for 750-1000<just not worth it to me. I can sell this for a 1000 and add another 1500 and find a nicer bike just like this. The marking on the gears look like it ate the spring inside the cam tensioner.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by Yoshi on 04/19/24 at 22:38:17

Have you tried running the bike without the belt cover yet?
It could be as easy as that
Maybe look under the pulley cover for rubbing

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/20/24 at 01:44:27

No but I can, at this point its undoubtedly the primary gears and sure enough thats where the noise was coming from. No one knows about removing and replacing the primary gears? Someone must have done it at sometime on this site.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by ThumperPaul on 04/20/24 at 06:53:39

1) Buy a Clymer manual.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009XIUOJW?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

2) You can access the crank bolt on the left side through the timing access cover. Be careful - it’s easy to screw up (strip, bust thru it, etc) that access cover and it has an o-ring. I chopped off the point of a 1” paddle drill bit, filed it flat/clean, and made a 1” screw driver. You can buy a special tool for it. Some people have used a quarter or washer and a pair of vise grips.

3) Shell Rotella T4 is conventional oil (dyno juice). T6 is full synthetic. Both of these are JASO MA/MA2 ‘approved’ (safe) for bikes with wet clutches. For whatever reason T5 (synthetic blend) doesn’t include the approval language. I use T4 and just do more frequent oil changes. I’m converting over to T6 for longer oil change intervals and finally being convinced that synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil. I hope the Valvoline you put in there is motorcycle-specific. Any oil labeled “energy saving” is a big no-no. If it isn’t wet clutch safe, you will have clutch issues like slipping. And who knows what other issues.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by Dave on 04/20/24 at 14:05:47

Carefully inspect the piece on the crank that the cam sprocket slides onto. When someone doesn't know that the crankshaft nut is left hand thread, they can overtighten the nut and fracture that part. Once fractured it no longer holds the crankshaft together and a small pin that holds the gear for the counterbalancer can come loose - and the next thing you know the balance shaft is out of time and hits the crankshaft.....then the blance shaft gets knocked out the front side of the engine case!

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/20/24 at 15:52:03

I'm using the Vavoline motorcycle oil 10-40. What I want to know is what could I add to help shifting in the lower gears. I was out today for about 100 miles and I feel bad that I beat the crap out of the shifter to get it into 1st or shift to 2nd and 3rd. Alot of times coming to a stop It get stuck at Neutral then I have to clutch it to get it to go into 1st otherwise it won't go. I feel like I'm driving my dads old 53 Indian Chief!

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/20/24 at 15:54:27

615A5740515D46405B535E41320 wrote:

GOOD LORD!

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/20/24 at 15:58:57

I forgot to say I upped the idle a bit and it helped some with the decel whine. Not nearly as drastic. I think I'm going to put some miles on it before doing anything more with the primary gears. They are beat up but certainly won't break because of that. With my full windshield on the engine noises are quite loud.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/20/24 at 19:31:05

I bought some T6 5-40 see if it helps the shifting.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/20/24 at 20:13:38

"I wonder if I could getaway with just taking the clutch cover off and using a impact gun to spin the crank nut off without pulling the other side apart to hold the crank? I'm sure I can find the primary gears used someplace."

Stay away from that nut with an impact wrench. As Dave previously mentioned, you can do this.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/20/24 at 20:21:12

Which may result in this.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/20/24 at 20:28:28

As previously mentioned, the primary gear nut is left-hand threads. That would be lefty-tighty, righty-loosey. Use a piece of soft rolled copper tubing in the gear mesh. That will lock the gears without damaging them. Key words & phrases, "soft-rolled". That's the kind of copper tubing that comes in a roll. Usually comes in 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4". It's soft and you can bend it by hand. Commonly used for ice maker installations.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/20/24 at 20:46:33

You can't expect us to continue helping you out if you are unwilling to take the initiative and provide some photos.

These things shouldn't be hard to shift. If it's hard to shift I wouldn't be looking at the oil other than to verify that it is in fact oil of reasonable viscosity and it is the proper level. Oil isn't gonna make it so hard to shift (unless it's filled with 80W). Either your clutch is dragging, your shift mechanism is damaged, or you have some sort of serious rub. You have an unexplained tire rub that could be the result of a bent swingarm or frame. Some sort of howling noise that could be pulley rub. Quit screwin around and take five minutes to remove the pulley cover. See is that rectifies the noise. While the cover is off inspect your shift mechanism to see if there's evidence of crash damage. Check your swingarm to see if it's bent. If it's bent, the eye-to-eye distance on your shock absorbers will probably be different (one side shorter than the other).

You say there are marks on the primary drive gears. So, is it like every tooth has a mark? Is it like superficial or has someone grabbed the gear with a pipe wrench. A few random teeth with a mark/chip probably aren't gonna whine, they should click as each defect goes through the mesh. You would need all the teeth chewed up to cause it to whine.

A picture is worth 1000 words.

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/20/24 at 21:41:25

Hey don't help just cause I don't trake pictures! I'm not taking out a expensice camarea when I covered in grease just to satisfy your curiosity. Effin gears are all marked up all the way around, what yyou think they would look like if they ATE A SPRING for christ sakes. I;m an engneer not some dumb azz. Forget about I think I have it sold. I had enough of trying to shift the EFFIN PIECE of crap! SAYONARA!

Title: Re: Terrible primary gear whine
Post by 04Savage04 on 04/20/24 at 21:48:43

And this thread doesn't exist! https://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1177807382#google_vignette

Funny mine does the EXACT SAME THING! I think i'm done with this mess! I pity the next owner.