SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Completely refuses to make a spark
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1385903883

Message started by keith pearson on 12/01/13 at 05:18:03

Title: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/01/13 at 05:18:03

new coil, new ignitor - and I even had it running once! all the wires checked for continuity, and for current. But no spark at all . Could anyone help?

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/01/13 at 06:36:27

I would really be happy if I could help you. Im sorry, man, I am not that guy. YOu , sir, are sitting in my worst place to be dealing with a machine.
YOuve done what you think you should & its still not doin right. Dang..I am not the guy, BUT, there are several SCHMART,, I mean Really, really Schmart guys here who just may be able to walk you back & save it.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by Serowbot on 12/01/13 at 14:49:51

Could it be the pick-up coil?...

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by verslagen1 on 12/01/13 at 15:27:47

if the voltage drops below 10v, it aint going to spark.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/01/13 at 16:25:09

6274637E66737E65110 wrote:

Could it be the pick-up coil?...

well, that is the only thing I haven't replaced yet! They are hard to get as well, only one on Ebay is in the USA, and doesn't have coloured leads - so there are dangers of connecting it back to front and blowing yet another part.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by Serowbot on 12/01/13 at 16:31:21

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong,.. but I don't think polarity matters...
It's just a winding of wire either direction...

Also not sure, but it seems like if you have continuity between the two wires, and not short to ground it would be okay...???... (talkin' outta' my hat here,... I suck at electrics)... :-?...

PS... If you do go in there,.. and if your bike has over 10k miles, I'd go ahead and replace the stator too... (whatever heat kills the pick-up has been cooking the stator too)...

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/02/13 at 09:58:53

I tested the wires from the pickup, and they showed a resistance , but higher than the 200 ohms it says on the spec for these things. When it actually ran , i noticed that it was charging OK.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by oldNslow on 12/02/13 at 10:39:11

130B0B041A5812600 wrote:

I tested the wires from the pickup, and they showed a resistance , but higher than the 200 ohms it says on the spec for these things. When it actually ran , i noticed that it was charging OK.

My Clymers manual says specified resistance is 200-240 ohms. Then it says that if the measured resistance is less than spec, or infinite; ie open, then the pickup is bad. I interpet this to mean that if the measured resistance is somewhat higher than spec the pickup is ok.

Are you absolutely sure that your battery is OK. A weak battery will crank the engine but will not fire the spark plug.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/02/13 at 10:57:25

the battery is a good one, new, and even higher rating than specified by Suzuki. But I will still give it another charge, as it is a bit cold here.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/03/13 at 09:10:33

Slap that Voltmeter on the battery. AND, just because somethin is new doesnt mean it Hasta be good. Its rare, but possible, to buy a bad battery.
Usually a spark will be made even by a low battery IF the plug is layin on the head so you can see the spark. If its in the head, then the load on the starter dragging it thru compression drops the voltage enough to rob the ignition of the power to generate a spark,
So, how is it youre sure its not makin a spark?
What has changed since you had it running?

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by Serowbot on 12/03/13 at 09:17:37

726D6B6C71764777477F6D612A180 wrote:

What has changed since you had it running?

It got a lot quieter?... ;D...

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by oldNslow on 12/03/13 at 09:58:53

Quote:

I am building a custom bike with a Savage engine - I think it's an early engine , the serial number is P401-106734. I wired it all up, and had it running . I now have the tank etc all fitted, so I tried it again - but this time, NO spark. It has a new coil and a new ECU. I have an idea what might have gone wrong, perhaps a loose connection - but when wiring up, I wired a lead from the ignitor to the starter solenoid as shown in the diagrams, BUT it only started while the starter motor ran! so I wired that lead to another power source and it ran OK. But I don't like the idea that I have in reality not wired it right, and now it won't go. I intend to re-wire the whole ignition now. I tested the coil, it is OK, so now I will try to test the ignitor.

Keith,

I just went back and reread the above from one of your earlier posts. I'm having second thoughts about your pickup coil despite the fact that it apparently tested OK.

Has the bike ever run except when you had power to that lead between the igniter and the starter solenoid ? It looks to me like that wire supplies the signal to the igniter while the engine is cranking and then is disconnected as soon as the solenoid disengages. At that point the signal comes from the pickup coil to switch the transistor in the igniter on and off.

You said this is a custom build. Does that mean you are not working with a stock wiring harness ?

I found this in the tech section:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1173898705

May be some help if you are wiring the bike from scratch.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/03/13 at 10:00:46

322D2B2C31360737073F2D216A580 wrote:

not much really , I had it running for a short time because the tank was not fixed up. when I fixed the tank I tried and the starter wouldn't work, but I found a fuse had blown.
I fixed the fuse and the starter was fine - it was the ignition fuse. Then I couldn't get a spark. I hve tested the plug, lead, coil, everything.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/03/13 at 13:45:14

7C42434F5D41402E0 wrote:

Quote:

yes, I only could get it to run with the wire full time live - BUT when done the right way , it DID fire up, only when the starter was running! It is a custom build, all non ignition I have done from a similar diagram, except I have no decompressor. The rest of the wiring works OK - it's done with a Zenith brainbox , really easy. I am ready to give up and call a travelling electrician to sort it.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by verslagen1 on 12/03/13 at 14:00:22

Maybe you got the wrong wire hooked to the starter.
1 should be hot from the kill switch, the other is a sense when starting to change timing.
http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/Circuits/96-04-ig-starter.JPG

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by oldNslow on 12/04/13 at 14:09:05

Quote:

the other is a sense when starting to change timing

So if the engine ran at all, even wired incorrectly, or with 12v to that black wire all the time, the pick-up coil is likely OK ?

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/13 at 14:27:36

07393834263A3B550 wrote:

Quote:

the other is a sense when starting to change timing

So if the engine ran at all, even wired incorrectly, or with 12v to that black wire all the time, the pick-up coil is likely OK ?

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/04/13 at 14:54:33

I learned that ($60.00 Boo Boo) messin with the generator. Spun the motor bakkerds & didnt get a spark,,

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/04/13 at 14:54:35

4B584F4E515C5A58530C3D0 wrote:

[quote author=07393834263A3B550 link=1385903883/15#15 date=1386194945]
Quote:

the other is a sense when starting to change timing

So if the engine ran at all, even wired incorrectly, or with 12v to that black wire all the time, the pick-up coil is likely OK ?

If it ran, I wouldn't suspect the pick-up coil unless it changed... such as a smoldering lump on the end of the wires.

the pick-up coil should be pretty simple, just a coil that you pass a magnet by to induce some current.

That being said, some IC's are polarity sensitive. drive them the wrong way they stop working.[/quote]
what baffles me is when it seemed to be wired the wrong way, it only fired with the starter running , but perfectly with the "wrong" wiring. I must be missing something really obvious.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by Steve H on 12/04/13 at 16:01:11

It looks, from the diagram, that the solid black, should be connected to the triggered side of the starter solenoid (only gets power when cranking). The black/white is ground.

The orange/white(or yellow) should get power when the switch is in the on position. Goes to coil and igniter.
The black/yellow is the wire the igniter uses to trigger the coil.

Orange and green are from the pickup.

Looks like the igniter is turned on by power being applied to the orange/white(or yellow it's hard to tell).

Black is trip for starting to retard timing and is only powered when starter motor is running.

It should be fairly easy to bypass everything in the bike's wiring harness if necessary or construct a simple one to make it run.

Sounds like runs only when starting is indicating no power at the orange/white(or yellow) when key is on. Power would feed through the black lead until the starter motor was disengaged.

Serow, some electronics are polarity sensitive. Wiring the pickup one way will result in + going into one of the leads and - going into the other. If the connections were reversed, the one that should be + would be getting - and might cause something in the pickup sensing circuit to die. Just depends on whether or not they polarity protected it.

OK...I'll shut up now. Hope I didn't confuse matters for the OP.

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by oldNslow on 12/04/13 at 19:14:19

Steve H wrote:

Quote:

Sounds like runs only when starting is indicating no power at the orange/white(or yellow) when key is on. Power would feed through the black lead until the starter motor was disengaged.

Keith,
I think Steve has figured this out. Check the diagram of the pins on the igniter in the link here - same one I sent previously - and make sure you have 12V at pin #5 when whatever you are using as an ignition switch is turned on.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=tech;action=display;num=1173898705

Title: Re: Completely refuses to make a spark
Post by keith pearson on 12/05/13 at 13:17:29

OK, I have now cut all the wires off, and started re-wiring from scratch. I have used a connector strip to avoid muddles. Perhaps finish tomorrow, if it won't spark then, it's time to hire a real electrician. Thanks for the help.