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Deep-Dish Detonation (Read 44 times)
DragBikeMike
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Deep-Dish Detonation
Yesterday at 20:48:59
 
In July of 2024, I tore down my engine for a 20,000-mile inspection.  I was testing the modified lube oil system, and it was time for a look inside the engine.  At that time, my odometer was reading just a little over 67,000 miles.  All the components affected by the lube oil system mods looked great.  No problems with gears, bearings, cam, rockers, or valve stems.  The lube oil system mods seemed to be a success.  But the piston was another story.  It had significant detonation damage.

I was running a 97mm Wiseco Pop-top piston.  It was set up with extra-high compression.  The cylinder was shortened to achieve a higher compression ratio (10.8:1 vs 9.5:1).

To keep my test program going, I restored the engine with a Wiseco 97mm Flat-top piston.  To reduce the compression ratio, I milled out the top of the piston to achieve a deeper pocket.  The deeper pocket increased the volume from 5cc to 10cc (the Deep-Dish Piston mod).  I used a standard-length cylinder and set up the quench at .038”.  Those changes lowered the compression ratio to 10.6:1. I was hoping that the slight reduction in squeeze along with the tight quench would solve the detonation problem.

This old post provides details on the failure, my evaluation, and recovery.

https://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1720767228

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #1 - Yesterday at 20:50:34
 
In March of 2026 I hit the 100,000-mile mark.  The engine had been running great.  It was time for another look.  I wanted to put the final seal of approval on the lube oil system mods and check to see how the Deep-Dish Piston was holding up.  It was a repeat performance.  The lube oil system mods were still doing a great job, but the Deep-Dish Piston had detonation damage.   Looks like it’s back to the drawing board on the detonation problem.

This recent post provides the gory details on the Deep-Dish detonation damage.  You can pick it up starting on page 12, reply #172.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1695617698

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DragBikeMike
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #2 - Yesterday at 20:51:17
 
It’s time to put this problem to bed.  The 97mm pistons seem to be prone to detonation when you jack up the compression over 10:1. The 94mm pistons don’t seem to mind, but the 97mm pistons aren’t happy with cranking pressure above 195 psi.  I decided to make three changes to my engine; seriously reduce compression, install a cam that closes the intake valves later, and take out two-degrees of ignition advance.  I anticipate a slight increase in cylinder head temperature resulting from the decrease in compression and retarding the ignition timing.  This post will document the changes.

Let’s start by figuring out how to reduce compression.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #3 - Yesterday at 20:51:59
 
I didn’t have any more 97mm Pop-Top pistons, but I had two new 97mm Flat-Top pistons.  These new Flat-Tops already have a 9.5cc pocket.  Great, no milling involved.  Unfortunately, to increase the volume Wiseco machined the spherical pocket deeper.  That removes most of the quench surface.  I don’t see that as a big hurdle.  I had detonation problems with both types of pistons, Pop-Top with no effective quench, and Flat-Top with good tight quench.  At this point, I just wanna get the compression ratio down.

The new piston (on left) has a narrow flat surface around the circumference, while the Deep-Dish (on right) has a significantly wider flat area.  Not gonna be able to squeeze out much end gas with the new piston.
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1_New_vs_Deep_Dish.jpg

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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #4 - Yesterday at 20:52:47
 
OK, so no tight quench.  I can’t use tight quench to mitigate the detonation issue, but I can easily reduce compression.  I used the compression calculator on the Wiseco website to figure out how much negative piston deck I would need to bring the compression ratio (CR) down to 9.8:1.  If the piston is situated .012” below the cylinder deck at TDC, and I install a .062” head gasket, I should have 9.8:1 CR.   A .036” base gasket combined with a stock length cylinder results in -.012” piston deck.

BTW, that calculator on the Wiseco website is sweet.  This is the data you will need if you use the tool.  The values will vary depending on your build.

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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #5 - Yesterday at 20:53:34
 
The 97mm cylinder I had been running was ready for the junk yard.  It was .0035” above finished size and had numerous scratches and gouges from previous gear and bearing failures.  I needed a replacement cylinder.

This old 94mm eBay beater looked like the perfect candidate.  Lots of rust on the cast iron sleeve but who cares, it’s getting bored out.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #6 - Yesterday at 20:54:22
 
The cylinder deck needed a kiss to make it flat.  I always find these things with an irregular head gasket surface when I check them on the surface plate.  That small area by the right-rear corner will be ok (I plug the oil passage).   I wanna keep the material removal to a minimum, and you can see the tool bit was just touching, so it can’t be more than a few ten-thousandths low.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #7 - Yesterday at 20:55:09
 
Boring the cylinder was tricky.  I could not seem to get a decent finish, and my tools just didn’t want to cut.  I had poked out two of these jugs with no problems.  Now the tooling seemed to be rubbing more than cutting and I had little control over the depth of cut.  I contacted Fast650 for a tech-assist.  The Fastman suggested I try playing with my tool height.  That seemed like a good idea, but I chickened out.  I was only .011” away from the finished size.  I didn’t want to risk it, so I used the rigid hone to take it home.  That was a job.

Next time I bore one of these, I’m gonna triple check my tool height before I start.  Look at that lousy finish.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #8 - Yesterday at 20:56:04
 
The rigid hone saved my bacon.  I ended up with a great surface finish, and the cylinder was round and straight within .0002”.  I was very happy.  The Wiseco Website has some excellent guidance on honing.  I followed that guidance using three grades of stones and it turned out great.

The rigid hone has a micrometer feed, two abrassive stones, and two felt wipers.  The wipers help wipe and wash away debri.  The wipers also stabalize the hone.  This Lisle hone is a bargain.  It will do a great job if you are patient and meticulous.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #9 - Yesterday at 20:56:47
 
I like to use lots of honing lubricant.  I fill a large plastic jar with 8-parts kerosene to 1-part oil, then periodically dip the entire hone into the mixture to keep the felt wipers soaked.  No skimping on this, keep those wipers soaked so they can do their job.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #10 - Yesterday at 20:57:26
 
I used 80 grit stones to bring the bore diameter within .003” of finished size.  Then 180 grit stones to bring it within .001” of finished size.  Then 280 grit stones to hit the mark.  The surface finish and cross hatch turned out great.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #11 - Yesterday at 20:58:04
 
I have a cheap dial bore gage, but I don’t like it.  It is difficult to keep centered and I never trust the readings.  I prefer using an inside micrometer in conjunction with an outside micrometer.  The outside micrometer has a vernier, so I can achieve accuracy within .0001”.  It takes a lot of time, but I am only checking one cylinder.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #12 - Yesterday at 20:58:42
 
I always do a second check with feeler gages to verify that I didn’t screw up.  It’s a quick & dirty way to check piston clearance.  The feeler reading agreed with my micrometer readings (.0025” on the money).  I am confident I got the piston clearance right.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #13 - Yesterday at 20:59:30
 
I run a copper head gasket on these big bore cylinders.  The copper gasket is prone to oil leaks.  I got tired of always having oil weeping at the right-rear corner of the head gasket, so I plugged the oil feed passages in the cylinder and head cover and ran an external hose to the head cover.  The feed passage in my cylinder head cover is already plugged but this replacement cylinder needed to be plugged.
 
To prep the oil passage for the plug, I cut M6 x 1.0 threads.  The passage is just the right size for the tap, so no drilling is required.
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Re: Deep-Dish Detonation
Reply #14 - Yesterday at 21:00:17
 
Then I make a threaded plug from an M6 x 1.0 bolt or screw.  Just cut off the head of the fastener and slot the end with a hacksaw.
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