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January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital (Read 185 times)
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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #15 - Yesterday at 06:29:45
 
Assisting Insurrectionists, like paying them, transporting them, and directing them, IS treason, by definition. Trump is a traitor. You're not a lawyer, so your opinion is not worth any more than mine.



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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #16 - Yesterday at 07:31:47
 
Assisting Insurrectionists, like paying them, transporting them, and directing them, IS treason, by definition.

 Incorrect.  The US Constitution disagrees with you, which is why you refuse to reference it, and call it "Fake MAGA" information.  SCOTUS ruled the legal distinction is that "enemies" of the United States are considered to be foreign nations or entities with whom the U.S. is in an open state of war.

 You just "want" it to be treason.
 
You're not a lawyer, so your opinion is not worth any more than mine.

 I use actual references from US law, the US Constitution, SCOTUS rulings, and experts in the field.  Your references are a social media post.
I'm not a lawyer, so I have to rely on professional experts who DO understand the law.  So, if a random Harvard Law prof and a random Stanford University law prof both say the law is correct, I have to assume it's correct.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1758772537/12#12


 Why not just offer some legal analysis that show Trump did indeed commit TREASON!, from accredited law firms - not social media, and that it is due to funding US insurrectionists?  You demand references from others, follow your own standard.
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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #17 - Yesterday at 08:52:50
 
SCOTUS decisions change with the times. That's the excuse you're using, and that's what I'm betting on.




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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #18 - Yesterday at 09:18:20
 
Eegore wrote on Yesterday at 07:31:47:
 Incorrect.  The US Constitution disagrees with you, which is why you refuse to reference it, and call it "Fake MAGA" information.  SCOTUS ruled the legal distinction is that "enemies" of the United States are considered to be foreign nations or entities with whom the U.S. is in an open state of war.

 You just "want" it to be treason.

Are you saying that "treason" can only be committed by a foreign adversary?
That makes no sense at all
Treason can only be committed by a citizen of the country it is committed against
That's the definition of treason

Google "Guy Fawkes"
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That's tomorrow by the way
Time for my annual watching of "V for Vendetta"
Originally written as analogy to to the Bush admin, but more appropriate for Trump



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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #19 - Yesterday at 10:44:45
 
Are you saying that "treason" can only be committed by a foreign adversary?
That makes no sense at all
Treason can only be committed by a citizen of the country it is committed against
That's the definition of treason


 No.  I am saying that one requirement according to Article III.S3.C1.4 is that a US citizen render "aid and comfort"  to "enemies".  It has been ruled, multiple times, that it cannot be indirect causal aid.

 "Enemies" is defined by the SCOTUS.  Enemies of the United States are considered to be foreign nations or entities with whom the U.S. is in an open state of war.

 The TREASON! argument posed in this thread is that Trump funded US Citizens.  This does not meet the US law criteria of "enemies" of the Nation.  It's a crime, but not TREASON!

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artIII-S3-C1-4/ALDE_00013527/
 
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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #20 - Yesterday at 10:50:51
 

SCOTUS decisions change with the times. That's the excuse you're using, and that's what I'm betting on.


 When they change it, we can use it in law.  Saying decisions "change with the times" is an excuse until it actually happens.  Do you even ask yourself why you want TREASON! to be a valid charge so badly you will make such poor arguments?

 Just toss down some accredited legal arguments that funding US citizens for an insurrection is TREASON! and be done with it.  Use your own standards, that you demand of others, and provide references.
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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #21 - Yesterday at 14:45:41
 
You can still be hanged for treason. That's good enough for me. And, yes, it will be treason when they come for 47. The thing is, he didn't stop attacking the US after Jan 6. He's still doing it, just from the inside. And, no matter WHAT Scumbag Court of the US ruled, what makes you think that those are the ONLY ways you can commit treason? That ruling is NOT exclusive.



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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #22 - Yesterday at 15:38:27
 
"Treason is defined as levying war against the United States or aiding its enemies."

That's from the Constitution. What was the attack on the US capital, if not an act of war? Whom did it help, other than Trump and his minions? They ARE enemies of the US, as shown by 47's entire 2nd term. The fact that the current illegal Supreme Court agrees with you just makes YOU more suspect. And those "enemies" do not have to be foreign governments, though I could make the argument that Trump aided Russia in a mutual benefits move.



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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #23 - Yesterday at 15:40:21
 
insurrection /ĭn″sə-rĕk′shən/
noun

1. The act or an instance of open revolt against civil authority or a constituted government.
2. A rising against civil or political authority, or the established government; open and active opposition to the execution of law in a city or state.
3. A rising in mass to oppose an enemy.

Uh oh, did that definition say "enemy"?



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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #24 - Yesterday at 19:08:02
 
That's from the Constitution. What was the attack on the US capital, if not an act of war? Whom did it help, other than Trump and his minions?

 There you go.  That's why according to the US Constitution, (finally you use that and not social media), it is not TREASON!  You can't act in self interest and commit TREASON!

 Enemies as defined by the SCOTUS are foreign - not domestic.  So sorry, not TREASON!.  Pick the correct crime.  Or... follow the demands you make of others and offer expert references.  Just provide the legal argument, from multiple legal experts, that proves Trump funding US insurrectionists is TREASON! and end the argument.


 Insurrection is not TREASON!  It is insurrection.  18 U.S. Code § 2383 clearly defines domestic action as Insurrection and not TREASON!  This is like saying manslaughter is murder.  Pick the right crime.
 
 Lets acknowledge this for what it is.  You want Trump to be hanged so much that you will ignore the US Constitution and all associated laws to justify it.  You need it to be TREASON!, and you will do exactly what Trump does, $h!t on the US Constitution and what it stands for to justify it.  
 
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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #25 - Today at 06:13:31
 
Blah! Blah! Blah!




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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #26 - Today at 06:20:41
 

 Just provide the legal argument, from multiple legal experts, that proves Trump funding US insurrectionists is TREASON! and end the argument.  Should be pretty easy since they have had years to compile the arguments.  

 Follow your own standards that you demand of others.
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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #27 - Today at 06:31:08
 
§2381. Treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.


§2382. Misprision of treason

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States and having knowledge of the commission of any treason against them, conceals and does not, as soon as may be, disclose and make known the same to the President or to some judge of the United States, or to the governor or to some judge or justice of a particular State, is guilty of misprision of treason and shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than seven years, or both.


§2383. Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.


§2384. Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

§2385. Advocating overthrow of Government

Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

As used in this section, the terms "organizes" and "organize", with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.



Nowhere in that list of felonies does it say that those are the ONLY ways to be guilty. That's why there are courts, with judges. You keep harping about the last SC "definition", which only applies to THAT trial. Just wait until there is a 13 judge Democratic controlled SC, and see if that lasts.



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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #28 - Today at 07:10:47
 
Nowhere in that list of felonies does it say that those are the ONLY ways to be guilty. That's why there are courts, with judges.


 US courts say TREASON! must contain all elements and have reinforced this multiple times.  Your proposal here lacks the direct foreign aid component.  US Citizens are not foreign enemies.  I agree this is why there are courts and judges, but the reason this TREASON! charge has not been pressed is because no legal team can assemble a TREASON! charge that will see a court or judge.

 Since you are right and all legal experts are wrong, you should really get your argument over to them.  I'd love to see the charges pressed.



You keep harping about the last SC "definition", which only applies to THAT trial.

 SCOTUS decisions do not only apply to THAT specific trial; they are binding precedent for all federal courts and state courts on issues of federal law.  This is specifically "stare decisis" and means that lower courts must follow the SCOTUS rulings, establishing the law/legal framework for all future, similar cases across the nation - including the "definitions within"

 US law does not allow each court case to create their own unique interpretations of definitions used in the US Constitution for each case.


Just wait until there is a 13 judge Democratic controlled SC, and see if that lasts.

 I am totally onboard with lawful changes and I look forward to that.  TREASON! should be amended following the procedures for Constitutional Amendments.  Not your process of using social media posts, Federal Court procedures you made up, and the overall ignoring of actual, real, US law.


 A simple solution would be to provide the legal argument, from multiple legal experts, that proves Trump funding US insurrectionists is TREASON!  Should be pretty easy since they have had years to compile the arguments.  

Follow your own standards that you demand of others.
 
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Re: January 6 --- Trump's attack on the US Capital
Reply #29 - Today at 12:56:13
 
No way in hell was that case a President who was charged with Treason. It's never happened before, so there is NO PRECEDENT. The standards for elected officials are a good bit higher than for someone off the street; the US President MUST be held to a higher standard, though MAGATs have allowed them to dip into pig sty levels.

And, we don't need an Amendment to override the SC. All they have to do is pass the law as "not reviewable" and set new Treason standards.

Oh, and you might want to look up Roe v Wade in reference to reversing SC decisions...



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