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Oil Cooler (Read 76 times)
zipidachimp
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Oil Cooler
08/25/25 at 01:04:17
 
Walking through the paddock at a roadrace last weekend, I noticed a squad of CB160/175s
stripped down for racing. One had an oil cooler
plumbed into the righthand engine cover, homemade, really cool(pun). Owner said the stock oil pump had the power to send the oil into and out of the cooler.
Anyone here tried that?
Cheers!  Cool
ps: not as clean as this one, but same idea. Lines came out of front of cover to/from cooler.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/173153236743
cooler was flat type.

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zipidachimp
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #1 - 08/25/25 at 01:41:25
 
found some info:
We have recently fitted up an oil cooler because the 216 tends to run hot, due to the extra
power being extracted. We modified the clutch cover to route oil to the cooler before it goes
to the oil gallery that feeds the crank and top end. This required a moderate amount of
welding. The cooler being used is off of a Kawasaki 900 Ninja since it works well and fell
readily to hand. Braided steel hoses are not necessary as the Honda oil pump only makes a
couple of pounds of pressure
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #2 - 08/25/25 at 04:25:44
 
This has been discussed previously - and the conclusion was that for most folks the cooler just isn't required.....or even beneficial.  The Savage engine is capable of keeping cool in any weather the rider can tolerate.

The racing world where engines are run at full and highly modified - is very different from the world where a Savage is ridden.  Most Savage are ridden well within their ability to stay cool.

The one exception is DragBikeMike.  He has modified his oil system substantially, and he has overdrive gears on his pump, an oil cooler, and additional plumbing that directs an oil supply to the higher gears in his transmission.  His engine was making so much power that it over stressed the transmission and the gears were failing.

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zipidachimp
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #3 - 08/25/25 at 12:57:19
 
Good to know on the hottest week of the year!
Thanks!
Cheers!  Cool
ps: Suz put oil coolers on the final batch of GS500 Twins. I believe they were built in Spain!
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #4 - 08/25/25 at 20:31:25
 
Dave wrote on 08/25/25 at 04:25:44:
This has been discussed previously - and the conclusion was that for most folks the cooler just isn't required.....or even beneficial.  The Savage engine is capable of keeping cool in any weather the rider can tolerate.

The racing world where engines are run at full and highly modified - is very different from the world where a Savage is ridden.  Most Savage are ridden well within their ability to stay cool.

The one exception is DragBikeMike.  He has modified his oil system substantially, and he has overdrive gears on his pump, an oil cooler, and additional plumbing that directs an oil supply to the higher gears in his transmission.  His engine was making so much power that it over stressed the transmission and the gears were failing.


That being said... you can ride to yours and your savage limit at a steady pace.  As long as that pace is maintained.
Coming to a full stop a freeway off ramp is a game changer, you must keep moving even at a slow pace or you'll start to hear the oil boiling on top of the valves and your ankles will fry.
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #5 - 08/25/25 at 23:24:45
 
Here often over 100 and over a hundred trains a day pass thru town , very rarely will I wait for train to clear. Turn around just keep moving at 100+ degree weather , the bike overheats at a traffic light but it’s happy to run at 80 plus in the heat. Sounds goofy but it seems to run better and cooler with higher octane fuel(canned fuel). Yeah it might just burn the hair off your legs thru your jeans is no exaggeration , they get hot at idle. I keep a fan close for tuning or running bike on the lift , it helps a lot ! Someone needs to make a oil cooler kit for the Savage , think they would sell good.
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #6 - 08/28/25 at 04:15:25
 
I guess I just don't ride my bike in a way that it stresses the cooling ability of the engine.  I ride in rural areas, I avoid the interstate when possible, and I don't ride in heavy traffic or in city traffic.  The Kawasaki pulleys has also cut engine rpm down significantly at highway speeds....and the Wiseco Flat top piston has also dropped the engine temperature considerably.  My engine still can get warm when stuck in traffic - it is very rare that I ever ride the bike in city traffic.

I wonder how effective an oil cooler would be in traffic or when riding in the city?  When stopped at an intersection or in traffic there would be very little (or no) airflow through the cooler....it is the same issue that causes the engine cooling fins to be less effective.  Additionally - the oil flow through the engine is minimal when the engine is at idle.  An oil cooler with little air flow and little oil flow is not going to provide much cooling improvement.  

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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #7 - 08/28/25 at 09:14:24
 
Quote:
I wonder how effective an oil cooler would be in traffic or when riding in the city?  When stopped at an intersection or in traffic there would be very little (or no) airflow through the cooler....it is the same issue that causes the engine cooling fins to be less effective.  Additionally - the oil flow through the engine is minimal when the engine is at idle.  An oil cooler with little air flow and little oil flow is not going to provide much cooling improvement.  


If we're wondering... the engine case and covers are the only exposure the oil has to the outside world.  Adding a cooler will roughly double the surface area available to cooling.

So in my case, 70mph on the freeway is 200-220°F at 100°F ambient and getting off and watching it rise to 240°F or so in a minute or 2. (vague memories of scorched calves and a helmet filling up with sweat)

Vs. 20° cooler?

I've only heard stories of riding in parades and overheating... how many bars are on main street?
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #8 - 08/28/25 at 14:59:30
 
I run an oil cooler specifically to supply cool oil directly into the gear mesh for 4th gear (I run a 4-speed).  I need the dedicated cool oil in the gear mesh to prevent gear tooth pitting.  My engine is modified and the stock system can’t handle the power.  The cooler only services the gear mesh and the flow to the cooler and gear mesh is limited by an orifice.

I can confirm with certainty that the cooler is ineffective in heavy traffic.  I routinely see 240F oil temp when stuck in gridlock.  Because I limit flow through the cooler, and I run a high-speed pump, and the oil from the cooler is running through a gear mesh, I haven’t experienced any significant change in oil temp.  My oil ran about 200F without the cooler and it runs about 200F with the cooler (at cruising speed, 4K on the tach).  Although the cooler is obviously reducing the oil temp when I’m moving, the cooling effect is offset by the heating effect caused by the high-speed pump and running the oil through the mesh.

I live in Hawaii and it’s usually pretty warm (about 80 to 85).  In this climate, a stock or moderately modified LS doesn’t need an oil cooler.  It is my understanding that oil should run about 220 to 230F so that moisture accumulation is flashed off.  The only time my oil ever exceeded 215F (with or without the cooler) is when I got caught in gridlock.  Maybe an occasional romp in gridlock is a good thing.

If you live or ride in the Mojave or Sonora desert all bets are off.
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #9 - Yesterday at 07:35:37
 
DragBikeMike wrote on 08/28/25 at 14:59:30:
I haven’t experienced any significant change in oil temp.  My oil ran about 200F without the cooler and it runs about 200F with the cooler (at cruising speed, 4K on the tach).  


Even more than the Oil cooler, I'd like to hear about adding the feature of running a temperature gauge.  Where do folks tap into the oil system?  Maybe this topic has been covered?

What do you think about the value of directly measuring head temperature, vs oil temperature?  I have heard that this might be more valuable, especially for an air cooled engine, and that it will show up emerging issues, like the onset of pre-ignition, more effectively than oil temperature, which takes a while to register a problem.  And a gauge, a thermocouple, and a ring adaptor for the spark plug all for less than $25.
https://www.amazon.com/Cylinder-Temperature-Engine-Sensor-Adapter/dp/B0BBCMH4...

For extra cooling, I've noticed that some oil coolers incorporate attached 12v fans, but what about mounting one of those fans on the side of the engine, like the Harley guys who ride in parades will add.  These provide some needed air flow when the bike isn't moving.
https://www.jpcycles.com/_a/product_images/1954/0125/love_jugs_slot_design_en...  
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #10 - Yesterday at 14:07:17
 
You most likely can't get the sensor on the spark plug - the plug lives in a deep hole.

I have my temperature gauge sender on the left rear head stud - it is easy to get to.  My temperatures is likely a bit cooler than if you put it up front by the exhaust port.

If you mounted the sensor on the stud under the exhaust port - you would likely get a ready that is misleading....as the stud is exposed to the exhaust port and the steel stud would transfer a lot of heat to the sender.

If you put it under the intake port....you would likely get a reading that is cooler than the actual temperature of the head.

The overall temperature of the oil will likely be cooler than the head temperature - however some of the oil splashing around inside the head will obviously be very close to the temperature of the head.

Just pick a spot and mount your sensor.......it will let you know when your bike is getting warm.

An electric cooling fan will likely not be of much benefit, as you would need quite a bit of air flow to make much of a difference.  The Savage charging system is only 100 watt, and that has to power all the lights, the ignition and keep the battery charged.....there is not a lot of electric power left over for running other stuff.  (My water cooled bikes do have pretty significant cooling fans in the radiator that comes on when the temperature spikes - the charging system is built to handle that electric load).
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #11 - Yesterday at 18:10:36
 
Dave wrote on Yesterday at 14:07:17:
An electric cooling fan will likely not be of much benefit, as you would need quite a bit of air flow to make much of a difference.  The Savage charging system is only 100 watt, and that has to power all the lights, the ignition and keep the battery charged.....there is not a lot of electric power left over for running other stuff.  (My water cooled bikes do have pretty significant cooling fans in the radiator that comes on when the temperature spikes - the charging system is built to handle that electric load).

Have you collected any data from your head temperature thermocouple, that you could share, to give us some idea of how your machine's head temperature varies with load, vehicle speed, and ambient temperature?  Is gage temperature highly variable, or relatively constant?  What gage and thermocouple did you install?  

I wouldn't think one would need to rate an aux. cooling fan for anything like continuous duty when budgeting power from the charging system.  It's only used when one is stuck at a light, or otherwise stationary.  I'd look at it the same as the starter motor load, namely extremely intermittent.

The fan motor on my liquid cooled Shadow 1100 draws about 5 amps, but it only comes on for a few, very short intervals during a typical ride.  I'd estimate something like 1 minute of fan cooling for 25 minutes of cross town urban riding, and much less operation if I'm riding continuously on the highway or a country road.  That's equivalent to a continuous load of 200 mA, which is 2.8 watts at 14V.  One could certainly make room for that much additional power consumption by switching one light bulb on the bike to an LED.

This amount of power consumed results in enough air movement to disperse the heat from the 1083cc.   I would think it should be adequate to cool the 652, even allowing for the inefficiency of not ducting the air flow.  It doesn't take much air flow to break stratification and start transferring heat.

One can take advantage of the large radiating heat transfer area already built into the engine, rather than trying to duplicate it in a secondary system, that will be more reliant on air flow, because of its much smaller surface area, than the engine itself.  After all, the heat first goes into the metal of the engine, then is transfered to the lubricating oil, then to the material of the oil cooler, and only then to the air.  Using the engine fins to dissipate the heat, as designed, means two less transfers, none of which are perfectly efficient and all of which have thermal resistance.

Here are some thermal conductivity coefficients:
Aluminum:  237 W/(m·K)
Steel:  45 W/(m·K)
Water:   0.6 W/(m·K)
Oil:  0.14 W/(m·K)
Air:  0.026 W/(m·K)
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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #12 - Today at 04:41:02
 
I have the Trailtech Vapor temperature gauge with the 10mm sensor.  It fits on the 9mm cylinder head studs.  I installed the sensor on top of the copper washer and under the nut prior to torquing the head stud.  Depending on where you install the sensor your readings can be entirely different than what I see.

https://www.trailtech.net/en-us/shop/accessories/digital-gauges/tto-mini-gaug...

I have not gone crazy recording a lot of data points - that wasn't my purpose for the gauge.  I just wanted to see what/how riding conditions and various modifications affected the engine temperature.  I seldom ride my Savage in a large city and I have only once incidence if heavy traffic or riding in a large city.  I live in a rural area and I don't encounter anything more severe than a STOP sign or traffic light in a small town.  When we ride in TN/NC/GA we stay away from Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge, Asheville and other touristy areas.

When I first installed a head temperature gauge I had stock gearing.  When riding on highways at sustained 70mph speeds the temperature would approach 280 degrees.  When riding on the rural roads at 50-60mph the head temperatures were down around 265.

On two occasions the cylinder head temperature reached 300 degrees when I was riding in very hot 95 degree weather in the mountains.  On one ride we climbed a steep gravel road up the side of a mountain - the road was badly rutted and had a washboard surface, and it was a first gear climb and there was no wind to help the airflow over the engine.  The second time the head temperature approached 300 was on a ride through downtown Pigeon Forge with traffic that was backed up and moving slower than a person could walk.

Later on I installed the Kawasaki front pulley and went to an 18" rear wheel with a 130/70-18 tire.  The highway cruising temperature dropped from 280 to 270 as a result of the lower engine rpm.  Later on I installed a Kawasaki rear pulley that lowered the gearing even more, and cruising temperature dropped a bit more.  (My current gearing provides 3,500 rpm at 60mph and 4,000 rpm at 70mph).

Most recently I have installed the flat top Wiseco 95mm Wiseco piston.  This has dropped my cylinder head temperature a bit more than the 95mm Wiseco piston that I had previously.  The back road cruising temperature of the cylinder head has dropped significantly - somewhere around 20 degrees!  My back road riding on curves generally involves steady 50-60 mph speeds with engine rpm in the 3,000-3,500 range and I rarely use more than half throttle.  That steady pace provided a cylinder head temperature on hot days around 240 degrees - it has dropped to 220 degrees with the new piston.

So my head temperature gauge is not a data collector - it is just a gauge that lets me know what is going on down there.  The battery life of the TrailTech Vapor is around 5 years (this is my second one), and when the battery runs out I will likely not replace it......as I just don't ride in a way that thermally stresses my engine, and I have no need of an oil cooler or any additional cooling.

 

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Re: Oil Cooler
Reply #13 - Today at 09:01:58
 
Dave wrote on Today at 04:41:02:
I have the Trailtech Vapor temperature gauge with the 10mm sensor.  It fits on the 9mm cylinder head studs.  

I just don't ride in a way that thermally stresses my engine, and I have no need of an oil cooler or any additional cooling.


Thanks a lot!  That is a lot of good information.  I think I need to get myself a few of these, for various machines, or get one, and pass it around to whatever machine I'm working with that month.

Your riding environment is certainly at the other end of the spectrum from mine.  I calculated that I spend 1/2 of my riding time stationary at traffic control devices.  The most practical vehicle I own is the 150cc scooter, which uses a forced air fan and cowl for cooling, like a lawnmower engine.  With the scooter, I can cut about 35% off my commute time, vs the car.  An electric bicycle would be even faster, (because it can operate under bicycle laws), and certainly cheaper to operate.

It also occurred to me after the fact, that when I wrote my last post, I had in my head the idea of wanting to cool the engine while stationary, but other folks in the thread were probably talking about adding more cooling capacity while underway.  An added oil cooler would be better for additional cooling capacity while motoring along.  I think an auxiliary fan would be better for cooling while stationary, but adds nothing while underway.
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