Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
That ignitor module (Read 150 times)
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #15 - 06/16/25 at 11:27:06
 
I just took a scope picture of one full cycle of ignition timing, and the result showed that the engine, cranked by the starter, (sparkplug removed) rotates at 5.868Hz (cycles per second) corresponding to 352 RPM.

Looking closer at the previous closeup of the timing peaks reveals that there is more like 16 mS between the peaks.

Calculating like before. I get the first peak to arrive 34deg before the other. If that last one is positioned 3 deg. before TDC as Mike has shown in his ignition curve thread, then it means that a stock system can time from 37deg. before TDC.
But it would not be difficult to mount small neodynium magnets exactly where they are desired to be, to place the trigger pulses at appropriate timing points.
Back to top
 

IMG_20250616_183557_NR.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #16 - 07/05/25 at 11:14:08
 
I am back here with a report about the Ignitors way of handling the ignition timing, during start and during driving.
And does it have a cut off function at 10K RPM?
There are 2 synchronization pulses coming into the module, one positive, one negative, and it was my theory that by applying 12V to the module via the black wire from the starter relay, the negative one of these pulses would be chosen to time the spark early. And when this voltage is removed as the starter relay is disengaged, then the ignitor picks the positive pulse as the timing reference.
Initially, this seemed like a trivial task to perform, but It was not. My function generator, although (or perhaps exactly because) it is an advanced one, could easily generate the required train of pulses, but only up to +- 10Volts, so I had to design a level shifter that could boost the output to +-31V, this voltage being the limit of my bench supply.
The picture here shows the schematic of the level shifter, with the floating battery driven gate driver supplies needed to make the 2 MosFets switch reliably.
Back to top
 

Level_shifter_circuit_diagram.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #17 - 07/05/25 at 11:14:17
 
So far so good, I now have the circuit built on a makeshift breadboard, not pretty, but it works.
The test rig looks like this: It contains the level shifter, with the associated batteries, to the left. At the botton the +-31 volt supply is connected.
Top right is the terminal strip where the Ignitor module is connected, and the small square dot left of it is the switch which can supply 12V to the black wire.
Left of the rig is the 12V supply to the Module.
All in all 5 power supplies to perform this task.
(And at this point, I am still nervous that I shall fry the module when I turn the supplies on)
Top right in the picture is the high voltage probe, which will measure the voltage drop on a resistor that is acting as stand in for the ignition coil primary coil. At this point I am not interested in generating sparks with the associated high voltage ballihoo. I just need a voltage step indicating if the current through the ignitor is interrupted. This means that the voltage across th resistor will be 12V when the coil is charged, and it drops to 0V when the ignitor disconnects the coil.
Back to top
 

The_test_rig.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #18 - 07/05/25 at 11:14:27
 
This scope picture shows the relevant waveforms for the test.
Yellow and cyan traces show the signals out of the function generator, the magenta trace shows the signal out of the level shifter. The level shifter not only boosts the voltage to +-31 volts, it also combines the 2 discrete pulses coming from the function generator.
When I took this picture the voltage was turned down to +- 10 volta, one cannot be too carefull.....
Back to top
 

The_relevant_Waveforms.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #19 - 07/05/25 at 11:14:37
 
The tests did not bring any usefull conclusions.
Even after reconfiguring the test bench to supply +-60V into the trigger input, did I manage to make the module respond to the trigger signal in an even remotely coherent manner.
The only exception being at 3000RPM, where it locked in and produced reliable trigger: and where there is enough time to establish a current through the coil for the successive firing.

It is true that my trigger signals are pure square waves, whereas the signal from the timing coil of the bike are more like sinusoidal. This may be the culprit, although it is beyond mee how a comparator can miss a fast pulse.
Back to top
 

good_3000RPM.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #20 - 07/05/25 at 11:14:50
 
But just as often it would go like this: No ringing, no spark.
Back to top
 

Bad_3000_RPM.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #21 - 07/05/25 at 11:15:10
 
Then there were the most frequent response which would occour over the range of revs, like this totally erratic response.
Back to top
 

crap_at_2400RPM.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #22 - 07/05/25 at 11:15:28
 
Just as a reminder, I made a mock up of a traditional points breaker ignition system: A 4.5mH coil (the flat disk which is a high voltage transformer coil I made a couple of years ago), a 300nF capacitor and a nice little switch (the black square thing) hooked across the capacitor, just like a breaker point.
This is what it looks like in hardware:
Back to top
 

Conventional_system_mockup.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #23 - 07/05/25 at 11:15:39
 
When the switch is opened, and current stops flowing into it,  it is a property of a coil, that it will try to maintain this current flow. To this end, it induces a voltage large enough to do so, and with this voltage it drives a current into charging the capacitor, spending the magnetic field in it during the process. When the coil is demagnetized, it is the capacitors turn to act, and it discharges through the coil, depleting the energy it had stored, and building the magnetic field back in the coil. Only a bit of the energy is lost due to the resistance in the coil.
Like a seesaw, this goes on and on untill eventually all energy is lost as heat.
This is a well known phenomenon, it is called the LC ressonant ringdown, and it was waveforms like this I was hoping to see.
I will have to do some measurements with the module in the bike to try to find out what I am missing.

If you feel like diving a bit deeper into the function of the good old points breaker system, here is the absolute best article I have found that covers the subject:


https://ttypes.org/conventional-ignition-systems/

To be continued
Back to top
 

The_ringdown.jpg

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
Axman88
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 27

Re: That ignitor module
Reply #24 - Yesterday at 07:44:40
 
Reading through your experiments, I am missing the big picture.  As I left, I thought you had no working ignition module.

It sounds like:
1) You got another good ignitor module, and used it to produce IMG_20250616_183557_NR?

2) You built a circuit that is intended to replace BOTH pickup coil and ignition module and connected this to the ignition coil?  Or, is your circuit intended to replace only the input from the pickup coil, and connected to the Suzuki ignitor?
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
FinnHammer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 278
Denmark
Gender: male
Re: That ignitor module
Reply #25 - Today at 01:36:20
 
Axman,

Picture IMG_20250616_183557_NR, shows the output of the pickup coil while cranking the engine without a spark plug installed. This image was made before I received a new used module.

The recent entries show how I tried to trigger this new module with waveforms generated by a signal generator, ampified to the same voltage level as that produced from the pickup coil.
As you will see, the module does not respond well to the signals produced, I don't quite understand why, but suspect that the fast risetime of this signal is the reason.
I am presently working on a way to faithfuly replicate the sinusoidal waveform from the pickup coil here in the electrinics lab, so that I can investigate the ignitors way of producing the spark.

Obviously, the ignitor is able to drive the bike with a sufficient spark, the bike starts and runs fine as it is, but the spark looks awfully weak to my eyes. Then again, the last time I fiddled with engines was in the 19 seventies, when point breaker systems were the rule of the day.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
Back to top
 
 

An expert is a person who has made all possible mistakes within a narrow field - Niels Bohr
WWW   IP Logged
Axman88
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 27

Re: That ignitor module
Reply #26 - Today at 10:49:42
 
FinnHammer wrote on Today at 01:36:20:
The recent entries show how I tried to trigger this new module with waveforms generated by a signal generator, ampified to the same voltage level as that produced from the pickup coil.

You know a lot more about electronics than I do, and I appreciate what you are trying to do.  It's easier to understand when all the particulars of the experiment are fully described, so nobody has to make assumptions.

The output voltage shown in IMG_20250616_183557, looked to me to be about 40V max?   That's quite a lot for a pickup coil, when I've seen numbers mentioned around testing pickup coil signals, they were just a few volts, but this was probably with the coils operating open circuit on the measuring meter.

One thing that I mentioned it early in the thread, was that it seems like the "noise" of the 3 phase alternator represents quite a regular pattern of pulses.  These would be clearer if the X and Y of the signal shown in IMG_20250616_183557 were amplified, but it does look like the voltage is bouncing consistently between something like 0 to 13 volts.  

If, Suzuki had chosen to use these low amplitude "noise" pulses for determining engine speed, and not just the once per spin signal from the dedicated reluctors, with 9 sets of coils in operation, it seems like those low amplitude pulses at ~333 rpm, would be coming out at 3000 Hz?  If Suzuki was using this method, and had decided that this number was the lowest rpm that the ignitor would produce spark at, that might account for your trigger circuit eliciting no response below 3000HZ.  Could the ignitor be counting your spark trigger pulses, then operating as fast as it is capable of producing sparks?

What was the behavior at 4000, 5000, and 6000 Hz?

Certainly modern rotors have many, many nodes to produce a much busier crank position signal than a single pulse per rpm.  The rotor pictured is from another single cylinder bike.  What we don't see, (on the back side in the picture), is a wide node, then a gap, but this rotor has something like 27 nodes.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/f3AAAOSw3h1ZQpM5/s-l1600.webp
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
07/07/25 at 16:24:09



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › That ignitor module


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.