Donate!
Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register :: View Members
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Mysterious rich running issue (Read 278 times)
lucme
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13

Mysterious rich running issue
07/25/24 at 07:31:21
 
I'm new to posting here but have been reading up on as much as I can about these bikes for a few months. I have an '05 Boulevard S40 that had been parked for 5 years or so until I got my hands on it.

I was able to get it running with a good carb clean and new jets, new air filter, oil change, new plug, and fresh gas. As well as some of the basic recommended mods from around here like a Raptor petcock.

I've been through the carb fully twice.
Once with some brushes and carb spray, and a random Amazon jet kit. This got it good enough to run but would bog out with more than 1/2-3/4 throttle, and it liked having the choke on all the time. But it was good enough to ride it to my shop space across town where I could dig into it further.
So I went through it a second time, this time running the body through a buddy's ultrasonic cleaner. After that it was struggling to idle. I found that I had the larger pilot air jet and the main jet switched, and also opted to get an AllBallsRacing jet kit to replace the no-name Amazon kit.

This is where my problems have really begun. Currently the bike will fire up from cold pretty easily, the idle is a little lope-y, but it seems fast enough to avoid the oil starvation issues of a slow idle. As it heats up, it begins to cough a little black smoke, and once it gets fully hot it will simply die from being too rich. It will stay running if you are on the throttle, but it spews black smoke, especially if you give it a good hard blip. The plug is always fouled with gas, black and damp. It is basically unrideable as anytime you have to stop and let it idle it tries to die out. This is all with the pilot screw all the way in. It only gets worse as I turn it out.

I have verified all the jets are the correct sizes, in the correct places, save for the smaller-bodied pilot air jet under the needle diaphragm is a bit big. (I tossed the original jets the first time I replaced them. I know, I'm an idiot). I've checked the float/fuel level in the bowl and it appears to be within spec. I've done a valve adjustment. The spacer on the needle is stock, not cut down like is suggested for a lean throttle. It does have an exhaust leak in the muffler. The air box is clean, no blockage. I am going to try running it without the air filter to see if that improves things when I have time.

It feels like I should be back at a basically stock carb now, so this constant super rich running issue is really confusing me. I feel like I've hit a wall on this project. I'm probably going to pick up a brand-used carb from a junkyard in the area if they've got one, if nothing else for spare parts.

This is all the relevant info I can think of right now, if you need more, please let me know. I'd really appreciate any suggestions you have for me, as I really am not sure where to go from here.
Thanks in advance!
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
ThumperPaul
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1633
Houston, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #1 - 07/25/24 at 14:49:06
 
Are you sure it's a rich carb condition and not oil getting past the piston rings and into the combustion chamber?

When you installed the Raptor petcock valve, did you cap off the vacuum line that works with the stock petcock valve?

Check your carb connection at the intake flange and make sure it's tight.  An air leak there will cause all kinds of wierd issues with idle and power.  It will also force you to use extra twist of the throttle (more fuel) to compensate for all the extra air coming in.  It will be poorly atomized fuel and almost pour into the cylinder rather than being a fine mist.

Hopefully others will chime in too.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
ohiomoto
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2765

Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #2 - 07/25/24 at 17:03:12
 
It's not mysterious at all.  You know what one of the problems is...the junk set of jets. You said one of them is a tad large, but if the jet came out of one of those kits you don't know what size it is.

You need a known good set of OEM spec jets. You could measure the jets you have, but the pin gauges needed to measure them would cost as much as OEM jets.    

And be sure to check the upper air jets if you changed them.  People have mixed those up with the lower jets before.  

Are you missing washers under any of the jets?  I don't know if your carb even had any.  If you don't know, you'll need to do some research.  And triple-check that float level.  And don't forget to make sure the vacuum line is plugged like Paul said.

And did you change the oil before you replaced the petcock?  If you did you might want to be sure there is no gas in it.

Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
lucme
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13

Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #3 - 07/26/24 at 06:19:53
 
Thanks for the replies, Paul and ohiomoto.

I did plug the vacuum line when I installed the petock.

Paul, what do you suggest to do if it is oil getting past the rings? I didn't suspect that since it only smokes black, not blue like is typical with oil burning.
I will check the intake connections for leaks next time I'm working on it.

ohiomoto, I agree that my jet situation is not ideal. Unfortunately, there is not a Suzuki dealer in my area, but I will pickup a used carb from a junkyard near me if they have one.
I did have one of the upper jets mixed up with a lower at first, but that has been fixed.
From all the diagrams and info I've come across, the only jet that has a washer is the main, and I have that washer.
I will check the float level again when I check the intake.

Thanks for the input. I'll get back with any results from doing those couple things, but that might not be for a few days.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18076
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #4 - 07/26/24 at 11:13:34
 
I would not suspect the rings at this point.......it appears you have a carb issue and are just dumping too much fuel into the fuel/air mix.
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
lucme
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13

Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #5 - 07/26/24 at 12:16:45
 
Little update:

Dave, that's what I was figuring as well. I just can't figure out the cause.

I was able to poke at it a bit this morning.

I made sure the intake connections were tight and flowed propane around them to see if it was leaking. It doesn't appear there are any leaks.

I checked the float height again. I'm using the clear tubing method I saw suggested here since pulling the carb all the way out is more of a headache than I wanted to deal with today. The bowl level was a little low so I raised the float a bit to get it back up to where it should be.

I changed the oil after I did the petcock. I gave it a sniff and it does smell slightly of gas currently. Would that indicate fuel leaking through the carb into the crankcase? If so, how do I go about finding/fixing the leak?

Dave, seeing what I've already done, or starting from scratch, do you have any suggestions for tracking down the over fueling?

I am definitely going to see if my local bike junkyard has a carb I can buy so at least I have a set of what should be stock jets etc.

Also just so I'm sure, the plate that holds the needle in the slide has 2 holes (other than the screw holes) that line up with holes in the slide when flipped one way, but when flipped the other they cover the slide holes slightly. I've been under the assumption that they should line up. Is this correct? Or should I flip that plate so the holes are obscured?

Again thanks for the input.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18076
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #6 - 07/26/24 at 13:11:24
 
The holes in the bottom of the slide are what allow the vacuum in the venturi to get on top of the slide/diaphragm and raise the slide.  When the vacuum is low the slide drops....when the vacuum is high the slide rises.

If the float level is correct and the float bowl is not overflowing - then the chances of filling your crankcase and airbox with fuel is not going to be an issue.  The other way the crankcase/airbox get filled with fuel is when the diaphragm in the stock vacuum operated petcock fails and allows fuel to flow down the vacuum line.  If you have a smell in your oil currently, it is likely from the overly rich fuel/air mix.

I suspect that you just don't have the jets in the proper place.  I would start with a #150 main jet and a #50 or #52.5 pilot jet.  Make sure the other jets are in their proper place.

What is the condition of the diaphragm in the TEV (Throttle Enrichment Valve).  Those get stiff and won't work as they age.

I likely have a good stock carb....I will look and see what I have.
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
lucme
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13

Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #7 - 07/26/24 at 14:10:48
 
Thanks Dave.

Would flipping the plate over to reduce vacuum be something to try?

I have a 145 main, 52.5 pilot, 230 pilot air 1 up top, and the other pilot air is oversized. I'm going to get my hands on a correct size pilot air one way or another so I know its all correct.

I'll take a look at the TEV diaphragm next time I can. Not till Sunday at best.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Dave
YaBB Moderator
ModSquad
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 18076
Camp Springs, Kentucky
Gender: male
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #8 - 07/26/24 at 15:36:52
 
Those 2 holes in the slide need to be there....without them the slide will not ever rise, and you will never get above an idle speed.

The size of the holes is also somewhat critical, as they determine how quickly the slide will respond to changes in the engine vacuum when you twist the throttle and open the butterfly.  Smaller holes will give more time for slide to rise - larger holes will make it happen faster.

Changing the size of the holes is risky - if the holes are too large the slide could rise too quickly and you will lose the "Constant Velocity" benefits.  The slide could lift quickly and allow the vacuum to drop - which would then allow the slide to drop.....it could get into some weird oscillation.

When I clean carbs, I never remove any of the jets in the carb inlet or the top where the diaphragm is located.  I only remove the pilot and main jet - the air correction jets never seem to get corroded or plugged up.  I never have to worry about getting them in the right place if I never take them out!
Back to top
 
 

Someday I will be old......But not today!

  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4391
Honolulu
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #9 - 07/26/24 at 17:53:56
 
"a random Amazon jet kit"

" also opted to get an AllBallsRacing jet kit to replace the no-name Amazon kit"

When you started with these aftermarket jet kits you lost control of the problem.  First, you didn't take note of exactly what was in the carb to begin with.  Then you put in the generic Amazon jet kit but have no way of knowing what you actually installed.  Then you installed another aftermarket kit of questionable pedigree.

This old post provides very specific details on what to check for.  It should give you a good idea of exactly how bad these aftermarket jet kits can be.  They can really get you screwed up.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1641171298

I suggest you break out the camera and provide us with some pictures.  We have a better chance of evaluating what you have if we can see it.

For starters, what color is your needle jet?  Is it silver (i.e. stainless steel) or is it yellow (i.e. brass)?

What color is your slide needle?  Is it silver (i.e. anodized aluminum) or is it yellow (i.e. brass)?

Does your idle mixture screw look like the long bogus screw discussed in the old post, or is it short like the OEM screw discussed in the post?

"The plug is always fouled with gas, black and damp. It is basically unrideable as anytime you have to stop and let it idle it tries to die out. This is all with the pilot screw all the way in. It only gets worse as I turn it out."

You can expect this when the bogus long screw is installed because the needle tip is grossly undersize.  As such, it doesn't throttle fuel flow.  It's essentially an on/off valve, two selections, full-on or full-off.

"I will pickup a used carb from a junkyard near me if they have one."

I would be careful with that.  You stand a good chance of finding a carb full of these bogus parts.  It would not surprise me if half the LS650s in a salvage yard ended up there as a result of someone installing one of these bogus carb kits.  Once one of these rascals gets installed, I bet it is a complete nightmare trying to figure things out.  I imagine some folks just plain give up and junk it.  Review the old post and familiarize yourself with all the little details, then when you go to the salvage yard insist on disassembling before you purchase.  Verify that the needle jet is silver and has OEM markings.  Verify that the slide needle is silver and has OEM markings.

I personally find Jets-R-us to be an excellent source for replacement jets.  They stock genuine Mikuni jets, and they also have a line of non-genuine jets that are good quality and correctly sized.  The non-genuine items are about half the price of the genuine items.  They do flat-rate shipping and as I recall it's about $6 bucks.  

If you can get your hands on a Suzuki OEM needle jet and a Susuki OEM slide needle, then all you need are the correct size main jet, pilot jet, air bleed 1 & air bleed 2.  I buy Suzuki OEM needle jets and OEM slide needles from Babbitts Suzuki Parts House.  They have always come through for me.  You should be able to get the other jets from Jets-R-Us.
Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
lucme
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 13

Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #10 - 07/30/24 at 06:15:22
 
Dave, thanks for the info on the slide.

Mike, I think you're probably right about the jet kits. I'd like to basically start from scratch with good jets, and if you say Jets-R-Us is reliable I'll go through them.
It looks like they don't list anything for our specific carb model, BS40 if I'm not mistake. So do you know if the jets in our carbs cross with to another more common model? Otherwise I'll pull them all out and take measurements of them to compare to the listed dimensions on the website.
If you've got any suggestions for identifying the jets, or even just specifically which ones I need, I'd appreciate it.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
ThumperPaul
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 1633
Houston, Texas
Gender: male
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #11 - 07/30/24 at 06:32:34
 
Here’s a link to the jets for our carb.  For the pilot jet, ours uses the first set listed (without emulsion holes).  Although some people have experimented with the pilot jet that has the emulsion holes.  Since you are already having problems, stick with “no holes”.

I’d try 50/150 if you have a stock bike.  If you have a freer flowing exhaust, maybe a 152.5 or 155 main (no bigger).

To save on shipping costs and have some options handy, I’d get a 47.5 and 50 pilot jet and 147.5, 150, and 152.5 main jet.  I didn’t check where you live and elevation.

https://www.jetsrus.com/a_jets_by_carburetor_type/jets_mikuni_BS_series.htm
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4391
Honolulu
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #12 - 07/30/24 at 17:12:03
 
Lucme, the Mikuni jets for the stock carburetor are designated in millimeters.  So, if the specified jet is a #145 the orifice is 1.45mm.  The stock jetting for your 2005 carburetor is as follows:

Main Jet:         #145 = 1.45mm = .057"

Pilot Jet:          #52.5 = 0.525mm = .0207"

Pilot Air Jet 1:   #45 = 0.45mm = .0177"

Pilot Air Jet 2:   #230 = 2.30mm = .0906"

The jets are expensive, and from what I understand you haven't modified your engine much, so I would stick with the stock jet sizes until you get the thing running correctly.  You need to establish a baseline first.  The only way to do that is get it back to the stock setup.  If you have a free flowing airfilter and a less restrictive muffler, then maybe install a 147.5 or a 150 main jet, all the other jets should be stock size.  It will run lean and hicup and take forever to warm up, but it will run.  From that point you can make changes (never more than one thing at a time) and dial it in.  These carbs really only need the slide needle raised up a bit and the mixture screw backed out a bit.

Measuring the jets is tough unless you have pin gages.  You can do some crude checks with numbered drills, but don't expect any real degree of accuracy.

For the pilot jet, a #76 drill should just go in, and a #75 should not.

For the main jet, a #54 drill should just go in, and a #53 should not.

For PAJ #1, a #78 drill should just go in, and a #77 should not.

For PAJ #2, a #43 drill should just go in, and a #42 should not.

If you use numbered drills to check sizes, you do not want to insert the cutting edge of the drill bit, you insert the shank so as not to damage the jet.  Use a light touch, never force the steel bit into the jet.  If you have a miniature numbered drill set, it would be most beneficial to know what's in the carb now.  It might help you to understand the problem better and also you could share that with us so we can learn too.  You can purchase a miniature numbered drill set from any decent hobby shop.  For PAJ #2 you can do a crude check with fractional drills (5/64" & 3/32"); close enough for diagnostics.

Getting a set of correctly sized jets is the easy part of your problem.  IMO, the lion's share of your issue stems from the slide needle, needle jet, and idle mixture screw.  Those items are harder to come by.  So, in an effort to get you on the road again, I humbly ask for your assistance.

Again:

What color is your needle jet?  Is it silver indicating stainless steel, or is it yellow indicating brass?

What color is your slide needle?  Is it silver indicating anodized aluminum, or is it yellow indicating brass?

Is your mixture screw long like the bogus screw identified in my old post, or is it short like the old post shows?

Can you post some pictures so we can actually see what you are working with?
Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
DragBikeMike
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 4391
Honolulu
Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #13 - 07/30/24 at 17:17:15
 
For the Jets-R-Us ordering data, you need the following type of Mikuni jets:

For Main Jet & PAJ #2:  "Large Round" N100.604

For PAJ #1:  "Small Round" N102.221

For Pilot Jet:  No emulsion holes N151.067
Back to top
 
 

Knowledge is power.
  IP Logged
ohiomoto
Serious Thumper
*****
Offline

SuzukiSavage.com
Rocks!

Posts: 2765

Re: Mysterious rich running issue
Reply #14 - 07/30/24 at 17:52:56
 
I told you it wasn't mysterious!!  (It will be mysterious if the correct jets don't solve your problem but you have to start with a "known good" parts.) Smiley

Jets R Us shafted me once.  They made a mistake on my order and refused to send me the correct jet until I shipped the wrong jet back.  The shipping was more than the cost of the jet.  Pretty crappy since their policy is NO RETURNS because they claim they can't resell the jet since it could have been modified.

They are a good source if they send you what you ordered.  You can also go through Partzilla or some other reputable mail-order parts company.
Back to top
 
 
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print


« Home

 
« Home
SuzukiSavage.com
09/07/24 at 16:49:57



General CategoryRubber Side Down! › Mysterious rich running issue


SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved.