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Cylinder Head Assessment Help (Read 182 times)
JOG
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #30 - 07/23/24 at 04:19:30
 
People spend more time on exhaust flow than intake, I think. I didn't make a PHD study of it, but did come to understand one thing that I think is important. The volume of the intake between the filter and carburetor needs to be at least equal to the volume of the cylinder. More is better, but equal to is minimum for making it go good.

Yeah, Dave, interesting osbervation.
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #31 - 07/23/24 at 06:59:35
 
JOG wrote on 07/23/24 at 04:19:30:
People spend more time on exhaust flow than intake, I think. I didn't make a PHD study of it, but did come to understand one thing that I think is important. The volume of the intake between the filter and carburetor needs to be at least equal to the volume of the cylinder. More is better, but equal to is minimum for making it go good.



Tuning the intake volume and length has practically no effect with the stock cam though since it has zero valve overlap.The only thing that will have an effect with the stock cam is the distance between the filter and the carb. If you have a pod filter at the carb the air has to make a sharp turn to enter the carb and that causes turbulence. Moving that pod filter farther from the carb inlet gives the air time to straighten out and the flow will be better then.

Drop in a hotter cam with some overlap and then you can tune the intake and exhaust to take advantage of the scavenging effect.
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JOG
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #32 - 07/23/24 at 10:34:04
 
One of the things that was in the article was an analogy with the
Fat straw versus skinny straw. If enough air is between the filter and carburetor so the cylinder can be charged without having to drag it through the filter, it gets a more complete charge. Intake relies entirely on atmospheric pressure to push air in, because of the vacuum from the piston falling. Exhaust has the piston shoving it.
I wish I could reference the article. That's all I've got,man..
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #33 - 07/23/24 at 14:29:16
 
You guys, please carry on about how engines suck and blow.  

In defense of a UNI pod filter connected directly to the carb, the filter does have a back end too where air can come in and mix with the curvy air coming in from all sides.  My 5" UNI filter butts right up to the opening in the air box where the snorkel (turbo tube) used to live.  I have the stock air filter removed and side air box cover removed so I know the UNI is sucking at least some straight air through there.  How much straight air vs curvy turbulent air is getting sucked is unknown.  Only the air horn side of the carb knows and it ain't talking, but it’s trying really hard to get the air straightened out before it runs into gasoline.  And the “air striker” on the PWK carb is also trying to get the air moving nicely  I do like the "induction" sound of the UNI connected directly to the carb.

Ok, here's a piston to look at....
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« Last Edit: 07/24/24 at 05:21:32 by ThumperPaul »  

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ThumperPaul
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #34 - 07/23/24 at 14:30:50
 
Underside.  All good.
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #35 - 07/23/24 at 14:34:22
 
The cylinder bore is really nice.  I haven't done any precision measurements, but the cross-hatching is still visible and looks good.  No stratches, gouges, or weird stains.

Hard to get good photos of the bore.  The endoscopic camera isn't any better - too many reflections.  I may try it again to get better photos.
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #36 - 07/23/24 at 14:36:52
 
another less than ideal photo.
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #37 - 07/23/24 at 19:16:00
 
Looks like the second ring got a bit of corrosion going on......and the cylinder looks like it may have a matching line of corrosion as well.

Or......maybe the photos and my eyes are not seeing things!  It is very hard to take good photos of shiny things!
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #38 - 07/24/24 at 05:52:12
 
Thanks for taking a look, Dave.  The 2nd ring is more like gunk than corrosion.  

At the top of the cylinder wall, I believe that’s the “carbon ring” that Clymer and others say not to remove or you risk excessive oil consumption.  I could use some educating on that…

I like things clean.  To me, all gunk is bad.  I want to clean it so bad.  But, I guess gunk in the right places acts as a sealant (keeps the oil out of the combustion chamber).

New motor = no gunk, no carbon, get the rings to seat during the break-in period and let the fresh carbon build-up do its sealing job…. Right??..

Rebuilt motor with fresh cylinder bore/hone and a new piston ….  Same thing…

Disassemble, Inspect, no rebuild, reassemble….  If you clean off the carbon ring, won’t it just make a fresh mess in 300-400 miles?  You’d want to take it easy anyway and give it something of a break-in period just like a new motor or rebuild…

I’m really struggling with why you shouldn’t clean up the old carbon mess.  Again, I like clean….  I suppose if I think about it and answer my own question….it has to do with new parts having super tight clearances while used parts are rather worn in.  Too bad it doesn’t work like washing a t-shirt and comes out of the dryer a little snug and you have to wear it a few days in a row to make it comfortable and broken in.   Grin Shocked
Wink
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« Last Edit: 07/24/24 at 16:48:19 by ThumperPaul »  
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #39 - 07/24/24 at 07:14:55
 
I remove the ring of carbon that is above the piston - that stuff can come loose and score the piston/cylinder.

I take a sharp razor blade and run the side I am going to be using across some sandpaper to remove any burs on that side....then at the same angle I carefully scrape while holding the razor blade as parallel to the cylinder as I can get.

And since you are going to hone the cylinder to make a cross hatch for the new rings to seat on.......you need to have that carbon gone or it will mess up the hone.

Maybe I could interest you in a nice 95mm Wiseco piston and cylinder?????? Roll Eyes
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #40 - 07/24/24 at 12:46:44
 
Thanks Dave!  Appreciate you sharing your thoughts and method.  I’ll trade ya!  Lol.  

Seriously though, I’ve come to the decision to leave “Blue” mostly stock and sell these parts bike parts.  I’ll sell ‘em “reasonably cheap” and hopefully someone with more skill and desire can have some fun with them.

Speaking of over-bores…the cylinder wall already seems thin.  Do people really bore this stock cylinder to 97mm?  Seems like that is getting dangerously thin for the cylinder wall.  Or is there a 97mm sleeve available and a lot of other machine work done to the cylinder to accommodate a larger sleeve?
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #41 - 07/24/24 at 13:55:10
 
The 97mm bore does leave a thin cylinder wall.  DragBikeMike has commented on the issue and how flimsy the cylinder wall likely is.

However - the 97mm pistons do work well and there are a lot of them out there doing their job just fine.
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #42 - 07/26/24 at 17:12:08
 
Looks to me like that motor had a steady diet of dirt.  Those striations above the top ring look like there was all sorts of abrasive material in between the piston and cylinder.

I agree with Dave, the second ring looks like it has a lot of corrosion.  If it were simply "gunk", you would see it on the oil rails (oil control ring) and the top ring (compression ring).  The compression ring is stainless steel with a plasma coating.  The oil rails are also stainless steel and probably have a plasma coating.  The second ring (oil scraper ring) is cast iron.  It corrodes easily.  It was probably sitting in one location for a very long time.  If there is pitting in the cylinder it will be easy to see when you kiss it with the hone.

Note how the entire surface of the oil scraper ring (2nd) is polished, top to bottom.  When the oil scraper is in good condition, only the bottom half will be polished.  That's because the scraper has a trapezoidal cross section.  The trapezoid forms a sharp edge at the bottom of the ring.  That sharp edge allows the scraper to wipe the oil off the cylinder as the piston moves down.  It is easy to install that ring upside down.  When you make that mistake, it becomes an "oil pumper" instead of an "oil scraper".
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #43 - 07/26/24 at 17:13:38
 
This shows a typical oil scraper.  Note how the top half of the ring is black, while the bottom half is polished.
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Re: Cylinder Head Assessment Help
Reply #44 - 07/27/24 at 04:12:26
 
Thanks Mike!  I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to provide an assessment and give me a good basic education on how to evaluate piston rings.  

So, sitting around doing nothing for a good while is probably the main cause of corrosion on the oil scrapper ring (2nd compression ring)?  Did I understand that correctly?

With the 2nd ring as is, how would engine performance likely be impacted?  Would excess oil consumption be likely?

Regarding the gunk (I’m still thinking carbon) at the top of the cylinder wall above the compression ring, what are you seeing to suggest filthy air/fuel mixture?

Interested in your thoughts.  Thanks!

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