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Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it end? (Read 648 times)
Surviving Philly
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #75 - 05/11/24 at 09:42:48
 
This further post is just to address the content in your previous ones:

1) the battery/ decomp controller: Just want to point out that the entire decomp system and relay have been removed from this bike.

2) I am using the stock release cam.

3) regarding your most recent video -- thank you this is very helpful in illustrating and I do, at this early point in diagnostic, belive we are already coming to the crux of the issue. I think travel due to wear between the shaft and cam is preventing the clutch from fully engaging at rest, or preventing the clutch from fully disengaging when the lever is pulled in, due to wear between the ID of the  cam and the shaft.

I know that harder springs with the stock cam can cause the cam to fall apart due to it's sintered construction. I'm wondering if, in my case, the cam has not failed so catastrophically, but instead is wearing away against the actuating shaft due to the same added stress of the stronger barnett springs... thoughts?

Finally regarding parts:

I have a new pack, springs, thrust washers, pressure plate coming in sometime this upcoming week. Additionally I was able to get a new stock cam/arm assembly (the entire thing) for very cheap from a shop around the corner that actually happened to be sitting on them for quite a while. completely unused.

EDIT: hopefully the hub and basket are not on need of replacing as well. Last time I was in there they were okay, we'll see.
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ThumperPaul
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #76 - 05/11/24 at 13:58:53
 
Good photos.  Your free play at the perch looks ok.  I’ve had it this close and things were fine.  I use a “quarter coin gauge”.  I need to be able to get a quarter in the gap and it should almost fall out (or barely slips out - that’s where I have mine set now) when you let go of the quarter.

If you don’t gently push the arm down, where does it sit just naturally resting?  

You’re definitely on to something here (cam wear, push rod too short, cotter pin ain’t sitting right, cam not matching up to the stop rest right, and I had to bend my spring a little to make it fit better with the Sneeze clutch cam).

Perhaps not applicable in your situation, but when I installed the stiffer Barnett clutch springs, I also installed the longer 46.5mm pushrod, and the Sneeze upgraded clutch cam.  Woody had some solid clutch engagement with those changes.

You’re gunna get this resolved!  I can feel it!  (If DBM can deal with me, yours should be cake!)
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #77 - 05/11/24 at 16:13:48
 
Nice job on the photos Philly.  I'm glad the vids are helping a bit.  

Freeplay at the perch looks just right.

Your release arm on the clutch cover looks perfect......but.......as you have aptly noted it doesn't seem right.  That mark will prove beneficial, protect it.

"and, shockingly, here i the lever with the wrench removed at the bottom of it's free travel. mind you, it will not drop down to this position loosely -- a gentle push puts in in this position where it stays -- I believe this to be wear between the cam and the actuating shaft."

Your comment about having to gently push the release arm down tells me that the return spring is not acting on the assembly.  That could be due to a missing, broken, or detached spring, but I personally think it's because the release cam is on the hard stop.  Once the cam is on the hard stop, any further rotation in the release shaft is a result of a loose fit between the cam and the shaft.  You have concluded the same thing.

I'm not sure that you understand the significance of this condition.  If the cam is on the hard stop, and the pushrod is hard against the cam, it prevents any further movement toward the right.  The release plate, release bearing, and pressure disk can't move to the right.  The springs are pushing on the assembly, but the cam will not allow any further movement toward the right because the cam is on the hard stop in the clutch cover.  If the pressure disk can't move toward the right, it can't pinch the clutch plates.

Can you recall if your spring looked like this?  Was it engaged with the release cam?
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Release_Cam_on_Hard_Stop_001.jpg

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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #78 - 05/11/24 at 16:37:23
 
Here's another angle of the spring and stock cam release on Woody.
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Stock_Release_Cam_001.jpeg
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #79 - 05/11/24 at 16:48:10
 
DBM,

the last time it was open, I didn't bothe to check the condition of the spring or the cam other than cursory glance. It hadn't occurred to me the potential for wear between the cam and the shaft as even a possibility.  Of course this will be the first thing I take a look at after parts come in and the cover comes back off
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #80 - 05/11/24 at 16:50:54
 
" I think travel due to wear between the shaft and cam is preventing the clutch from fully engaging at rest, or preventing the clutch from fully disengaging when the lever is pulled in, due to wear between the ID of the  cam and the shaft."

Since you can rotate the release arm down with your finger, I think your cam is on the hard stop.  And if your cam is on the hard stop there is no clearance between the cam and pushrod.  And if there is no clearance between your cam and pushrod, the effective stroke of the release cam is increased.

As I previously mentioned, freeplay in the assembly (cam, pushrod, and push piece) is desirable.  There must be some clearance in that release mechanism to permit the pressure disk to move right and apply pressure to the plates.  So, when that cam is on the hard stop in the clutch cover, you want the pushrod to be able to move right & left just a little bit.  In the absence of any sort of factory spec, I'm gonna guess maybe .010" to .020" (0.25mm to 0.50mm).  

If the release mechanism needs .010" to .020" clearance to ensure full clutch engagement, then the release cam effective travel must be reduced by .010" to .020".  That cam only moves about .070", so let's assume the effective travel is about .050" to .060".

If, due to wear or incorrect assembly (pushrod too long), there is no longer any freeplay in the release mechanism, the effective travel of the relase cam increases to .060" to .070".  The cam no longer has to take up any clearance (free play) before it starts to move the pushrod, so it's effective travel starts at the instant it is moved.  If the cam effective travel is longer, then it releases the clutch farther.  It moves the pressure disk farther to the left.  Moving the pressure disk farther to the left will disengage the clutch more not less.

I believe your current clutch setup has the pressure disk too far to the right, and I think it is too far to the right because the face of the pressure disk is severely worn.

When you get the clutch cover off, please fabricate a jack tool (like the one I showed in the video) and jack the release cam hard up on the stop.  Then check the position of the release arm when you rotate it clockwise (viewed from rear).  I bet it lines up with the mark you applied to the clutch cover.  

The jack tool doesn't have to be fancy.  You can make it from an old piece of scrap metal or wood.  It just has to be rigid enough to hold the cam hard on the stop in the clutch cover.

Also, take some pics of the return spring on the release shaft so we can see how it is installed.

Great score on the new release shaft and cam.  I still suggest you be ready to shim it to remove as much lost motion as possible.  A junk set of feeler gages can be used for shims, or you might be able to get a cheap steel shim assortment at a local auto parts store.
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DragBikeMike
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #81 - 05/11/24 at 17:04:56
 
Although you no longer have a decompression controller, I still advise that you disconnect your battery when working on your hotrod.  It's simply the best practice.  Fingers are hard to replace; fires are hard to extinguish.

I think you are right about the stiffer springs accelerating wear on the shaft.  My personal observation is that the cams don't wear, only the shaft seems to wear.  The stiffer springs will aggravate the condition.  

In addition, I think that as the flats on the shaft shaft wear, the force applied to the cam increases.  Have you ever rounded out a socket head screw (allen screw).  At first, the wrench seems a bit loose, and as you continue to rotate the wrench it wipes out the flats in the socket.  That's because the mechanical advantage goes up as the socket spreads open or the corners of the wrench wear off.  I think the cam behaves in a similar manner.  As the shaft wears, it applies more spreading force across the flats in the cam, since the cam is not ductile, it fractures rather than rounding out.
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #82 - 05/11/24 at 17:16:27
 
Here are some more vids for you to view.  They should help you prepare for the job.  They might also raise some questions that should be resolved before you commence surgery.

Clutch Removal & Primary Inspection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reNteqyw72Y


Checking Spring Preload Installed height

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b15OGCy4kac


Clutch Pack Disassembly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9WnfCZlP2k


Clutch Pack Reassembly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJE6G0MjYbI


Clutch Reinstallation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoS1Lr1cTTs


Selecting Correct Pushrod and Adjusting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iSvcwOYaAs


I hope you will find the videos useful.  I'm not very good at this YouTube stuff but I'm learning.  It's kinda fun.
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Surviving Philly
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #83 - 05/11/24 at 17:58:49
 
DBM,

Let me first say that your videos are very well made despite your apparent limited experience with this (wouldn't have noticed, they are well-edited and the audio is great.) I would sincerely encourage you to generate more content (if you don't already) via YouTube because your knowledge not just with this bike but generally, in terms of resourcefulness, fabrication, etc. is tremendously useful to us young aspiring gearheads.

Back to the issue at hand:

Great suggestion with fabricating shims from feeler gauges -- this is very clever and I do have some junk gauges to cannibalize for this purpose, however -- Am I correct in assuming that the brand-new, out-of-the-box cam lobe and actuating shaft should have exactly zero loss of motion? would this be an anticipated modification should loss of motion start to present itself again in the future?

additionally, let me further summarise this group diagnostic for the sake of clarity, please correct any of the following if written in error:

1. Based on the pictures provided today, you have apprehensively concluded that, because the arm is able to be manipulated by hand, that the cam is on the hard stop build into the cover.

2. The Cam is on the hard stop because the entire clutch assembly is pushing to the right much more than is desireable in a mechanically sound savage, due to the pressure plate wear.

3. Because the Cam is resting on the hard stop along with the pressure plate wear, the disks cannot fully engage because there is no move movement by which to move further to the right. a shorter pushrod could temporarily allievate this, however there is only so far to the right the entire assembly can move before you start running into externalities -- such as the bolt heads hitting the shaft, which is what I experienced earlier.

All of this being said -- here is what I do not yet understand and where I feel this journey is continuing towards.

Months ago, when I posted that first pressure plate which was totally worn away, what I did immediately afterward was to replace that pressure plate, AND put a brand new barnett kit (disks, steels, and springs) in the bike. It was a relatively very short period of time until the pressure plate was totally worn away again and the disks were totally wapred/ glazed. (here is a picture I should have posted weeks ago of all of the plates/disks).

We know there is loss of motion between the shaft and the cam, as evidenced by the pictures today showing the position of the arm.  

Does this loss of motion directly correlate to me wearing down these clutch packs/pressure plates so quickly and if so, how?

My working theory is that loss of motion between the cam and the shaft causes the rotation of that shaft in relation to the force acted upon the cam to be totally out of wack, and because of this the cam is not rotating to the degree it should due to the loss of motion -- with the cam not fully rotation the plates cannot fully disengage, and because of this start to wear -- simultaneously as the entire pack moves to the right due to this aggressive wear, the cam is forced onto the hard stop with no free play, causing the pack to not be fully clinched together when the lever is not pulled.

So basically, the clutch is in a condition of weird contact at all times, making it burn out.

Sorry I'm losing steam here ... lost my train of thought.





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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #84 - 05/12/24 at 05:24:46
 
Philly, are those the original discs/plates?  Or are those the Barnett discs/plates?

What first jumps out at me is that I see what appears to be rusty spots on the plates and there is even some on the discs (perhaps residual from the plates).  

Is that rust?  Something is definitely astray if that’s rust.  Or is this a recent photo after the discs/plates have been sitting outside in the elements for several months?
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #85 - 05/12/24 at 09:01:39
 
They've been sitting outside for a couple weeks is all
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #86 - 05/12/24 at 18:30:27
 
"Am I correct in assuming that the brand-new, out-of-the-box cam lobe and actuating shaft should have exactly zero loss of motion? "

No, I don't think so.  I think it will still have a bit of lost motion.  It has to have a little bit of clearance in order to facilitate assembly.  But it should be less that what you currently have.  Shimming it makes a big difference.  You will just have to check it.  Since you have a new shaft and a new cam in hand, slip them together and see how they fit.  Let us know what you find.  In the event that the new parts have a loose fit, you can set up a shim now while you are waiting for the other parts.

"you have apprehensively concluded that, because the arm is able to be manipulated by hand, that the cam is on the hard stop build into the cover."

I base my conclusion on the reported absence of spring action returning the arm.  The only way I can see the spring not returning the arm is for the cam to be on the hard stop or the spring being disconnected, broken, etc.  But I think you and I are pretty much on the same wave length here.

"The Cam is on the hard stop because the entire clutch assembly is pushing to the right much more than is desireable in a mechanically sound savage, due to the pressure plate wear."

Yes.  In addition, you might also have an extra-long pushrod in there.  Have to check when you get it opened up.  Do you recall anything about the pushrod?

"Because the Cam is resting on the hard stop along with the pressure plate wear, the disks cannot fully engage because there is no move movement by which to move further to the right. a shorter pushrod could temporarily allievate this, however there is only so far to the right the entire assembly can move before you start running into externalities -- such as the bolt heads hitting the shaft, which is what I experienced earlier."

Yes, yes & yes.

"Does this loss of motion directly correlate to me wearing down these clutch packs/pressure plates so quickly and if so, how?"

I don't know.  Have to see what's inside.  IMO, the lost motion is bad in a number of ways.  The biggest problem I see is that it will mislead you into selecting the wrong pushrod.  The release arm will sit high in relation to the marks, and you will select a longer pushrod to move the arm down.  In so doing, you will consume all the freeplay and possibly even hold the clutch from fully engaging.  What can you tell us about the pushrod?  Did you change it on your previous attempts?  Did you install the current pushrod or did some prior owner or service shop change it?  Is it a genuine Suzuki pushrod or is it a pushrod that has been fabricated to suit?

I will try to put together some guidance on shimming the cam.  I believe Dave also shimmed his cam.  You might want to ask him about his experience with the shimming.  It's a juggling act but it definitely improves the release assembly.  Seems to hold up too.  You can see from my vid how tight the assembly still is after over 38K miles, most of which are with heavy Barnett springs.  I'm not suggesting heavy springs.  I have a Sneezy cam.  I don't recommend heavy springs with the stock cam.

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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #87 - 05/12/24 at 18:39:02
 
Thanks DBM sounds like we are speaking the same language.

As far as the pushrods go, I have all three genuine Suzuki rods and the middle length rod is in there. The only other rod I've ever used was the shorter one, before the previous pressure plate was replaced.

I did put the longer rod in exactly one time but the clutch was so far from engaging i couldn't even move.

I'll mess with the new cam when I picknit up tomorrow and get an idea of the clearance on the new part.

The rest of the parts should come in this week. Is there anything that would be useful for you to see inside the case? I'm planning on just taking pictures throughout the job.
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #88 - 05/13/24 at 21:23:15
 
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Re: Clutches, clutches, clutches. Where does it en
Reply #89 - 05/14/24 at 01:55:18
 
At this point, I think your plan to take pictures as you disassemble will be sufficient.  I would take shots from several angles each time you remove a part.  Before you remove the release plate, take photos that show how it is situated in relation to the flange on the hub (recessed, flush, protruding, etc.).  Pay attention to how your thrust washers are arranged.  Get shots of the plate stack before you disassemble the pack.  Get pictures of your wave washer assembly before you remove it from the hub.  Get shots of your release cam and release arm and return spring while they are still assembled.  Try to get good detail on the return spring and its orientation.  Get pictures of the bronze bushing in the primary driven gear (basket) and the spacer that it rides on.  Get pictures of the pressure disk that show how much it is worn away.  Get photos of the hub flange so we can see if it is worn.

Get a measurement of the spring post height like I showed in my video.

Measure all the plates (steel & fiber), and measure the plates stacked up without the wave washer.  

Thanks for the YouTube.  That factory fit is pretty sloppy.  I've never had the luxury of a brand-new release shaft.  As previously mentioned, I will try to put together a vid on the shimming.  I think it will be beneficial.
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