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Piece of dowel rod in cylinder (Read 720 times)
zevenenergie
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #105 - 11/30/23 at 02:23:42
 
ThumperPaul wrote on 11/29/23 at 14:51:56:
I'm ready to start a wager....  Here's the bet...  Hit the happen button and see what happens....

Wager A: YOU bet $20 the engine will suffer severe damage like bent/broken valves and/or related components.

Wager B: I bet the bike won't suffer any damage.  My wager amount is my repair cost (a real mechanic and parts) if I'm wrong.

This is like a twisted go-fund-me with a wager.  Your $20 bet won't win you any money;  but you will win the absolute knowledge that Little Woody can beat Big Bad Metal.

I need about 50 bets against me!  Bring it on!!  I'll be nice...  If I win, I won't keep your $20!

Y'all want to know!  You want to see me hit the happy button!!  It's like watching a train wreck!



I'm 100% sure it will cause serious damage to your engine.
This block of wood is so large that even if you remove the cylinder head, you cannot get it out of the cylinder.

You can save yourself and others the trouble of having them deposit $20 into your account, which you then have to deposit back, by making that video and posting it here.

I'm not going to watch, because there wil be nothing to see, the engine will probably not even start because your valves wil bent immediately after the first revolution.(If the engine can turn over at all)


If you're going to get crazy, order this for 20 dollars (maybe two bottles)
and burn that wood.

https://www.amazon.nl/GOX-stimuleren-sportgebruik-allergie%C3%ABn-vermoeidhei...

I think that if you want to raise money to sponsor yourself, I think people would rather see something that is uncontroversial and has a real chance of success.

I want to see that engine run again.
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Dave
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #106 - 11/30/23 at 04:23:21
 
I am not sure what will happen if you put the valves back into adjustment and hit the starter button.......I believe the piston and dowel will come to an abrupt stop as the piston approaches TDC - you won't get even 1 revolution of the crank.

There is only the thickness of three dimes between the top of the piston and the flat surface of the head....I suspect that when the piston heads up on a compression stroke the wood will prevent the piston from going over TDC.  I don't believe the starter has enough power to bend or break anything....it will just come to a sudden stop.  "IF" the piston is headed upward on the exhaust stroke - there is a chance the wood could hit the exhaust valves as the piston and wood dowel head upward.  Once again the piston and dowel will come to a stop - but there is a chance the momentum and starter have enough inertia to bend a valve and damage the rocker and/or cam.

What is your mechanical ability to correct this?  The Savage is not a difficult engine to work on and a manual is a must - however there are a lot of parts and it is easy to mistakenly turn the crankshaft nut the wrong way, lose the dowel that drives the oil pump, install the oil filter backwards, strip the head cover threads, etc.  If you have never had an engine apart before......I am not sure that an upper end removal and replacement on the Savage is the place to start.

Folks on this forum can help - but ultimately you are the one who has to get it done.






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zevenenergie
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #107 - 11/30/23 at 05:59:30
 
Dave wrote on 11/30/23 at 04:23:21:
 I don't believe the starter has enough power to bend or break anything....it will just come to a sudden stop.



I tend to agree with you because of your vast knowledge of engines. But in this case not Mike.

When the piston is almost at the top and the closer you approach the TDC, the force you can exert with the piston is enormous. Enough to bend the valves.

Due to the relatively large rotation of the crankshaft compared to the small displacement of the piston near TDC.
Industrial flywheel presses are based on this entire principle.

I think you can even bent a valve by hand by turning the flywheel.



Tumperclone ....Have you fallen for the temptation to press the start button? Shocked



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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #108 - 11/30/23 at 06:07:55
 
Thanks Dave.  You have outlined all of my concerns and what would probably happen if I hit the happy button.  I am by no means an engine mechanic.  I can do and will attempt most tuning items and ancillary things (brakes, chains, oil, filters, cables, etc).  The last time I kinda opened an engine was in 1980 on my 1974 Trans Am.  I was 16, first car, and my grandfather and I replaced the timing chain (it didn’t exactly go smoothly, but we ultimately got it right without destroying the engine). I have a car mechanic friend that has offered to help.  His experience with bikes is limited, but he’s younger, braver, better memory and eyesight than me.

Will try to do this in the frame.  I’ve read DBM’s and Oldfeller’s posts and got a headache but they are very helpful.

I need to compile a list of stuff needed:

1) head gasket
2) clutch side engine cover gasket
3) plug cap seal
3a) will regular Permatex Ultra Black work?  Or what flavor do I need?
4) Verslagen cam chain tensioner (do it while I’m in there)
5) Do I need new O-rings somewhere (which ones)?
6) Loctite?  What flavor and which bolts/studs get it
7) some kind of stud extraction tool like DBM made or buy one.  I guess the double-nut trick won’t work
8) exhaust gasket (what size if I just buy generic off Amazon or somewhere)
8) What else?

Pre-Steps
1) roll Woody into the driveway (or yard), apply engine degreaser to the head and work area (with spark plug in and everything buttoned up like intake and valve check covers), clean up as best as possible, hit it again with brake parts cleaner.  Is it safe to carefully use a pressure washer with a standard tip (not the cut your toe off tip).  Or just use a regular hose and sprayer attachment?
2) remove exhaust
3) drain oil

Clarification/Corrections: I feel like the Clymer manual could be my friend and worst enemy at the same time.  Pics and discussions on this forum seem better and more trustworthy.  

1) is Clymer wrong throughout about rotating “clockwise”?  Everything should be counterclockwise, dirrection the bike rolls forward, right?

2) what else do they make harder than it should be?

What is the valve cover gasket made of (is it reusable)?  Might it be possible to raise the head about 1" while it's still trapped on the studs, reach into the gap with my sausage fingers and grab the wood, and then bolt it back together without a new gasket?   Obviously trying to avoid removing the studs and/or taking the engine out of the frame.

I’m trying to wrap my head around all this and will also talk to my mechanic friend today.  Thanks!

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« Last Edit: 11/30/23 at 08:50:37 by ThumperPaul »  
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #109 - 11/30/23 at 15:40:50
 
You won't be able to just lift the cylinder head up and set it back down.  The multi-ply headgasket will come apart.....it is a one time use affair and you will need to clean off the coating from the sealing surface of the head and cylinder before you install a new head gasket.

I prefer to use the Suzukibond rather than any RTV sealant that you get at the parts store.  The Suzukibond sets up slower and gives you more time to work - plus for me I get the added benefit that the tube lasts for several years.  With the store bought RTV products once you puncture the seal on the lid - the hole tube goes bad in just a few weeks/months.
https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/99000-31100?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KC...

If you just do the head and leave the cylinder alone - you will need a head gasket, the funny shaped O-ring that goes between the head and the head cover, and a Verslagen head plug, and 4 new copper washers for the head studs (unless you anneal and sand the old ones smooth).  You likely can reuse the O-rings on the valve inspection ports and the exhaust gasket.....and the little sealing washers on the head cover bolts.

For the bottom end you would need the clutch side case gasket.  There are sealing washers on those screws as well that can probably be reused.

You had mentioned that you would likely add the Verslagen tensioner upgrade.  You might also consider the stronger Sneezy clutch cam upgrade - that would also require you to address the length of the clutch push rod.....it seems the stock one won't be the correct length when you change the clutch cam.  
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #110 - 11/30/23 at 15:55:11
 
Thanks Dave.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #111 - 12/01/23 at 19:50:22
 
Paul, to remove the cylinder studs, you can use a M9 x 1.25 nut that is modified.  Order genuine Suzuki part number 09159-09004 (which is piece 24 of the cylinder head parts fiche).  If you can find a M9 x 1.25 nut at your local hardware supplier that will work also.  Saw all the way through one wall of the nut, and about half-way through the other side.  This picture shows the saw cuts.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #112 - 12/01/23 at 19:53:13
 
Then use a long-nose vicegrip to pinch the nut onto the stud.  You have to really grab that nut tight and pinch it ultra-hard onto the portion of the stud that protrudes above the cylinder head.

This would be the type of vicegrip required.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #113 - 12/01/23 at 20:06:54
 
You only need to remove the right-rear stud to provide sufficient room to get the head off with the engine in the frame, but the more studs you remove the easier it will be.  The right-rear is mandatory, add the left-rear to make things a bit easier.

If you can't break the studs loose, you will have to pull the engine or at least drop it down in the frame.  I suspect you have already read this old post, but in the event that you haven't, here's the link.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1609889036/0

Before you reinstall the studs, use a long metal tube and a vacuum cleaner to suck out the oil that has accumulated in the stud holes in the engine case.  I find that a steel brake line works great.  They are available at any auto parts store.  Just cut the flare off one end.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #114 - 12/02/23 at 06:06:37
 
Thanks Mike.  Yes, I read your post and saw your cut-nut and other extractor gadget (reminded me of a flywheel puller tool).  Is there not an extractor tool (socket) that already exists and can be bought?

Removing the right rear stud is a must (okay, got it).  Can the head be lifted off with the other 3 studs still in place?  Can the head clear the frame especially at the left rear stud still in place?  I’m guessing the left rear stud should come out too for ease of reassembly.

Vacuuming out the stud holes.  Have not thought about that…. Does 100% have to be cleared out?  When reinstalling the studs, I’m guessing they get some loctite?  I haven’t read that far ahead.

Tips for timing chain?  I think I read in Clymer about rotating the engine clockwise??  My trust in the Clymer manual is about nil.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #115 - 12/02/23 at 10:15:15
 
Paul, over time the threaded holes in the engine case fill with oil.  If you try to reinstall the stud with that oil in the threaded hole, the stud hydraulic locks.  So, you really need to get the majority of the oil out of the holes.  The brake tubing works great.

You do not want to set these studs with Loctite.  If you did that, you would not be able to get them back out without removing the head.  So, when you reinstall the studs, a very light coat of oil on the threads is all that is required.  The residual oil left in the threaded hole will probably be sufficient.

The four studs are all a different length.  The right-rear is the longest, the next longest is the left-rear, then the next longest is left-front, and finally the right-front is shortest.  If you remove the two rear studs, there’s more than enough room to get the head off.

You should also remove the rear cam chain guide.  That requires that you remove the clutch and pull the guide out from the bottom.  You will be doin the Verslagy mod so that should be no problem.  As Dave suggested, you should also install the Sneezy release cam while you are in there.

IMO, any tools you buy, anything you break, any scraped knuckles, frustration, yellin & screamin, pulled hair, headaches, frustration, etc. are all money in the bank.  There are few things more valuable than experience (good or bad).

As far as a commercial stud extractor is concerned, Google should tell the story.  I’m gonna see what I can find.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #116 - 12/02/23 at 11:02:38
 
Thanks Mike.  This just keeps getting better.  Pulling the clutch to remove the rear cam chain guide.  I guess I missed that part of the surgery.

Looking at stud extractors; they all seem big and may not work in close quarters.  That's my guess as to why they aren't suggested somewhere.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #117 - 12/02/23 at 11:31:48
 
I don't see why you won't just pull the engine?
Not much more work and everything is easier after that.
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Re: Piece of dowel rod in cylinder
Reply #118 - 12/02/23 at 12:05:16
 
I might, but I don't feel like dealing with the dang boat anchor.
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