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Finn Hammer's Savage (Read 3314 times)
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #420 - 08/23/26 at 05:57:04
 
Finn:

Glad you got the Kawasaki rear pulley machined and installed.

I agree with you - the lower rpm makes the Savage far more relaxed to cruise on.  I have never really noticed any noticeable loss of acceleration with it - it still gets up to speed quickly when you open the throttle.  I have noticed that in 5th gear the acceleration is reduced at speeds above 65mph - 5th gear has become a sort of "overdrive" gear and if I want to accelerate faster at speeds over 60mph - I need to drop down to 4th.  The only negative thing I have found is 30-35mph is a bit clumsy - 1st gear is too low of gearing and the the rpm is high.....2nd gear is a bit too tall and the rpm is a bit low.

It also lowered my highway cruising speed head temperature about 20 degrees farenheit.

You are in an elite group now - the only other people running this setup is Badwolf, you and me.

This setup works great on a light bike without saddle bags, windshield and an engine that has been modified to make more power.  It has made it easy to ride 70-75mph for extended distances on the highway when necessary. (I prefer the back roads - but sometimes you have to ride the highway to get to the good roads).

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FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #421 - 09/02/26 at 13:39:28
 
It took 20 metric tons to break the frictional bond between crank pin and crankshafts, and then a continous 10 tons to drive the pin out.

But why would I want to do that in the first place?
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #422 - 09/02/26 at 13:39:54
 
Well, to be honest I am probably a bit neurotic. (Understatement of the year!)

When I look at the conrod on the Savage, I can't help to notice: it is very skinny by all standards.
It is not thicker than my little finger, as if that is a measure of merit....

Anyway, I have been obsessed by a worry, that this conrod can break any moment, if I start to rev the engine to 8000rpm for any length of time.

Look at it: no engines designed to rev has such a skinny conrod.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #423 - 09/02/26 at 13:40:24
 
Searching around for a suitable replacement, I found this beauty:
It comes from the JAWA 500cc speedway engine, a methanol gulching fire breathing monster revving up to 11000rpm and delivering 80+horsepower.
This is a part that could put my worries to a rest.
It is only 0.5mm shorter than the standard item which can easily be taken care of, and the big end is only a tad smaller than standard, needle roller bearings are readily available in that size also.
I only have to ponder if this is worth the 600$ plus fitment, which I don't feel up to.
We will see
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zevenenergie
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #424 - 09/03/26 at 02:36:14
 
Wow, that's a really good find!

But I also find 600 euros is a lot of money.I get a cramp in my paying muscle at 30 euros already.

I think you'd appreciate some feedback, so here I go...
if the Jawa is running at 11,000 rpm, there is four times as much force acting on it as when the engine is running at 5,500 (the force increases quadratically).

And suppose you're running at 8,000 rpm, you don't really need such a strong connecting rod. At 8,000 rpm, the pulling force is about 2.12 times greater, and I think our crankshaft can handle that.

I also think this heavier connecting rod disrupts the balance. And if you don't think that's a problem;
I would rather make the piston pin and the piston lighter and maybe drill some holes in the crankshaft to balance this again.

*You can machine the hollow piston pin on either side (make a bevel on it, because the end carries almost no force). And the piston can surely spare a gram or two here and there. And every gram at 8000 rpm weighs 4.2 kg due to the acceleration forces.

*You could also look for racing piston pins. They are thinner and made from high-alloy steels. https://www.llracing.eu/wrist-pins
*A needle bearing with more rollers would result in better dimensional stability of the big end.https://ikont.com/catalogs/general-product/5508_3_E_ALL.pdf
*You can also look for a connecting rod with a larger big end and then turn down the matching big end pin on both sides... SmileyAnd if you do that eccentrically, you have a larger stroke. Smiley Smiley (I don't know if the Savage's crankcase has room for that.)

I wonder if the DR 650 has a crankshaft with a stronger big end?
OEM 1216132E00

https://www.cmsnl.com/products/connecting-rod_1216132e00/

They are all ideas you have probably thought of yourself, but who knows.
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« Last Edit: 09/03/26 at 04:57:27 by zevenenergie »  

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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #425 - 09/04/26 at 02:37:44
 
Zevenenergie,

Overkill is a good thing if it works towards putting the mind to rest, and all I want is to feel secure that the conrod does not break and produce a total wreck of my engine. It is a feeling thing, I'm way out on my own here and far from any serious evidence or facts, and many will think I am silly, since I have not heard about a broken conrod ever. But then, not many soup up the engine like I attempt to do.
As far as the weight goes, the standard rod weighs in at 383gram, distributed to 240g. on the big end and 142g. on the small end.
The JAWA rod is advertised to weigh 220gram, but this has not been verified by myself, I think it is probably heavier, but not much heavier than the stock one. I think it has thinner sections, and relies on the strength given by spacing them wider apart.
I am not so worried about the big end strength. A BSA GoldStar has a conrod that also fits the length closely, but whereas the standard big end is a 37/47mm the Goldie big end is 54mm dia. in the rod. This will definitely collide with the balancing axle. (not that I am shy of machining a bit off the balancing axle, but I'd rather not)
Standard bigend is 37mm/47mm means it has 5mm dia.rollers
The JAWA rod is 35mm/42mm which means it has 3.5mm dia. rollers
Stick the JAWA in the LS650 crank and it becomes 37mm/42mm resulting in 2.5mm rollers.
SKF has one such standard bearing, and it is good for 11000rpm and 21.6kN dynamic load.
I could also fabricate a custom crank pin with a smaller diametre at the middle section37/35/37, to suit the original JAWA bearing, at present that is what I intend to do, but it is pending confirmation that the roller cage of the bearing will pass over the 37mm.
I am studying the tooling used for pressing the crankshaft back together (after all, I am a toolmaker) and perhaps it is not all that complicated, when it comes to it. Would be nice to be able to do it all by myself.
This is interesting stuff and I love it.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #426 - 09/05/26 at 14:48:41
 
That 37/35/37 setup is interesting but unfeasible given the cage required for the rollers; it would only have a wall thickness of half a millimeter. You really need a cage because the big-end bearing doesn't rotate continuously but moves back and forth, causing the rollers to be constantly forced against one another—which wouldn't work well. In any case, a cageless needle bearing is inherently less reliable, and for a big-end application, it would be extremely unreliable.

I would opt for the slightly shorter BSA connecting rod and compensate for the difference by machining the pin eccentrically. If done correctly, the piston-to-head clearance remains unchanged, and you gain a bit of displacement.
I hadn't yet considered the implications for the balance shaft, though; it would turn into a bit of a Frankenstein setup.
That’s why I’d ultimately choose the standard connecting rod. Of course, there’s always the option of having the original rod strength-tested; a company that certifies lifting straps and chains could easily help you out with that, provided you handle the preparation yourself.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #427 - 09/06/26 at 00:56:31
 
Zevenenergie,

To clarify about the big end bearing:
Of course I will use a caged bearing. The stepped big end crank pin is proposed, so that I can use the stock JAWA (or GM, they seem similar) crank bearing.
That will make the bearing 35mm/ 42mm as mentioned earlier.
The only snag is, where does the cage align in the bearing: in the conrod, on the crankpin, or both.
The original Suzuki bearing cage aligns to the conrod, so it would be able to slip over a larger outher diameter on the crankpin, but I will have to aquire the actual JAWA part to verify if it will do the same.
With regard to the failure mode of the conrod,  I am not assuming that it breaks on the upward decellerarion, but rather on the power downstroke where it also whips sideways. I see for my inner eye how it buckels up and breaks.
This failure mode stuff is all based on my intuitive understanding of the engine,which again is based on pictures of broken engines that I have seen. I could be wrong.
But better safe than sorry.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #428 - 09/06/26 at 09:08:00
 
Project better conrod is moving on.
Here is the crankshaft in CAD, and from here I can design a fixture to align and hold the parts together while I drive the crank together.

Strange that the left side with the flywheel and the generator is much beefier than the right drive side.

It is nice to handle these wonderfully well machined parts. Sad to think this is the past, and the future is battery driven.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #429 - 09/06/26 at 10:56:03
 
That CAD drawing is beautiful. Shocked

I like to share something:

I once thickened the crank cheek of a moped that had a rotary intake driven by the crank cheek. That way, I could go from an 8mm to a 21mm carburetor. But to do that, I had to grind away a piece of the connecting rod (with a diamond grinding stone). Standard, it ran at about 8,000 rpm, and with this and other modifications, it reached about 13,000 rpm. No problem at all.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #430 - 09/07/26 at 15:47:58
 
I am sure I am missing something here.  If you grind the center of the crankpin undersize, how do you slip the new caged bearing over the pin?

If you are going to modify the crank assembly, have you considered going to a longer rod?  A longer rod will provide better mechanical advantage over the crank throw due to the improved angle of attack.  It will also reduce piston thrust and the associated frictional loss, and it will increase dwell at TDC.  Long rod engines make more power.  The stock cylinder will allow the use of a 3mm longer rod when combined with a stock piston.  It will bring the piston top right up to the cylinder deck at TDC.  So, with a 3mm longer rod and a stock piston you end up with higher compression, better mechanical advantage, reduced frictional losses, increased dwell at TDC.  All good stuff.

A modification like that is way beyond my capabilities.  Balancing the beast would require a technician with specialized skill and experience.  The balance shaft will make it a lot more complicated.  But the end result might be gratifying.

I see that both the LS and the old DR and the newer DR all use 37 x 47 x 25 rod bearings.  We already know that the piston pins on both the LS and the old DR are the same diameter.  It would be nice if one of those DR rods turned out to be about 3mm longer than the LS rod.  I suspect that's not the case since the DR is off road and the designers probably did all they could to keep engine height as low as reasonably achievable.

I would be more concerned over the balance than a rod failure.  Even if you manage to pull off the 35mm valve modification I don't think your con rod will be in jeopardy.

I've straightened out three of these cranks.  That's pretty easy.  Never had one that was twisted.  I suspect that would be a bit harder to correct.  Good luck, keep us in the loop.

Zevenenergie, taking that little moped from an 8K redline to 13K redline must have been fun.  Do you think it was choked off a bit with that 8mm carb?  That's like the size of a pencil.  I've got carbs that big on my model plane engines.  To run the engine up that high, did you have to switch to thinner piston rings?
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #431 - Today at 08:39:28
 
Mike,

The cage of the standard big end bearing is 39mm inside, so it could slip over a 39mm crankpin even though it sits on a 37mm pin..
I have studied some bearing catalogues and learned that the cage can be referred to both the outside as well as the inside diameter. On some roller bearings, like the left side main bearing, the cage can even be referred to the rollers, but that would probably be disastrous in a reciprocating bearing like the big end. I think it is mainly just important that the cage stays centered during operation.
I am hoping that the cage on the JAWA big end bearing is referred to the outside diameter, because then I can remove enough material from the inner diameter to allow it to slide into place.
I did not consider using a longer rod, given that the stock rod already is a fairly long one. Since it would also mean going back to the stock cast piston, and discarding the 97mm forged Wisecos, that would be a nogo.
The DR rod is a lot shorter, 147mm if I remember right.

I am interested in knowing how you guys straighten the cranks, are you using a hammer, to knock it back into alignment,  like I have seen on many videos?

I hope that the jig I am designing will enable me to press the crank together in one go, with the result that it aligns with less than a thou of runout.
I do not have access to to the proper grinding machines as they are found in a toolroom, but I now have a millinng machine with DRO, so I can even fit new valve seats for the 35mm valves.
Below is a rendering of the yet unfinished jig, I have made the 2 top members transparent for clarity.
The purpose of the jig is to put the parts of the crank into the exact right position, except in the axial direction, and then hope they don't rotate during assembly.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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