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Finn Hammer's Savage (Read 2330 times)
FinnHammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #315 - 06/28/24 at 06:11:13
 
zevenenergie,

You have a point, effectively mirroring the 60deg narrowing cut from the seat, on to the valve, that might well be beneficial.

Cheers, Finn Hammer
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #316 - 06/30/24 at 00:13:13
 
I'm lovin that superimposed CAD drawing.  Really shows the difference between the 3 angle and 5 angle.  I really wish I had your IT skills.  Being able to whip those CAD drawings up is really beneficial.  Nice job.

Zevengerie, if I understand correctly, you are suggesting a 35 to 38 degree back cut on the valve rather than a 30 degree.  That's a good suggestion.  You could do the 35 degree back cut and then flow test, then do a 30 degree backcut and compare the data.  I can see how the 35 degree might direct the flow in a more advantageous trajectory.  My Gizmatic only has the ability to cut 30 degrees, maybe a little lathe work on old junk valves is in order.

"I am considering fitting new seats, to advance the valves one millimeter into the combustion chamber"


Finn, I would reconsider this idea.  The flat-top pistons are already running compression ratios on the ragged edge of detonation.  Although I have not encountered any issues with the 94mm pistons, I am having some detonation problems with the 97mm pistons.  That makes sense since the 97mm pistons inherently drive up the compression ratio.  As I recall, you are running a 94mm.  If you make those valves proud in the combustion chamber you will most likely tip the CR over the edge.  I am finding that you can't massage the combustion chamber more than about 1cc.  That's not enough to mitigate the problem.  When I originally came up with the flat-top idea, I asked for a 10cc trench cut in the top of the piston.  That would have resulted in a CR around 10:1.  Instead, Wiseco did a simple radiused dish in the piston top.  That only provided 5.2 cc of additional volume.  The CR on the 94mm is up around 10.8:1.  It seems to work but it's right on the ragged edge.  The 97mm flat tops are up around 11.4:1.  I think that's too high.

When you go to those 35mm valves, I think you should be thinking about adding a little more combustion chamber volume.  Try to get the CR down to 10.5:1 or less.  Setting your valves proud may seem like a good idea for flow but it's gonna reduce your combustion chamber volume.  Don't overlook the fact that the improved flow is gonna increase the dynamic CR.  You want your combustion chamber at least 55cc, but 56 or 57 would be better.  If you want to really trick it out, trench cut your piston and get the CR down to a more reasonable 10:1.  It's carbureted with no engine management system (no vacuum retard, no knock sensor, no fuel enrichment, etc.).  It's right on the precipice of detonation.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #317 - 06/30/24 at 01:01:16
 
Regarding the five-angle valve job, I have found the Neway cutters very difficult to use on these rock-hard valve seats.  They cut pretty good when the seat width is still narrow, but as the cutter plunges into the seat and the seat width gets wider, the pressure required to get the cutter to bite increases dramatically.  I ultimately fabricated a strongback to apply steady pressure to the cutter.  I also found that mineral spirits works good as a cutting fluid.

The 60-degree and 75-degree throat hogs have carbide blades that can rip out a lot of material but they leave a poor finish.  Also, the 45-degree and 30-degree cutters leave a less than desirable finish when trying to enlarge the valve seat diameter.  They do okay when simply resurfacing a stock diameter valve seat, but when you have to get aggressive and actually enlarge the seating area, you end up with a rough surface finish.  The smaller cutters (exh vlv) only have 3 blades.  They can't hold accuracy.  The seats go egg-shaped.  The 5 blade cutters hold accuracy pretty well, but the 3 blade cutters seem to always go egg shaped.

I have found that special laps are indispensable for improving the finish and achieving satisfactory contact.  You certainly have the capability to make a set of laps.  I use 6061 T6 aluminum, but mild steel would probably be better.  I ream the center of each lap with a .375" machine reamer so I can use the lap on a standard Neway pilot.  Obviously, concentricity & perpendicularity require utmost attention.  Make laps for all five angles.  I glue abrasive paper to the laps using cyanoacrylate.  That way I can use the lap with liberal amounts of oil or water to keep the abrasive from loading up.  One application of abrasive paper will clean up one valve seat.  Then I simply soak the lap in acetone and the glue dissolves.  That allows me to quickly replace the abrasive for the next seat.  I drive the laps with a cordless drill and a ball socket allen stock.   Use 220 grit to achieve good contact, and 320 grit to achieve the desired finish.   It works superb.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #318 - 06/30/24 at 01:46:57
 
Wow... what a great idea those aluminum lapping tools on a standard Neway pilot. I'm going to shamelessly borrow (steal) the idea from you Mike.

I've been hesitating for a while about the price of the newway cutters.
I've had a look and there is also diamond sandpaper that lasts about 15x longer.
Maybe it's possible to do the whole valve job with these tools.
It wouldn't be too difficult to make them electrically powered.

And then invest in a hone or a Valve guide reamer so I can fit new valve guides. Because I think that egg shape could be amplified by wear of the valve guide.

I also want to say that I am impressed with that cad drawing. It makes it much clearer.

Thanks for the inspiration. You guys are very skillful. Smiley


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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #319 - Yesterday at 10:40:51
 
Mike,

Those laps are going to be replicated in Denmark too, such a great idea.

You write that you made a strongback to assist in cutting the seats, sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea what a strongback is. Could you post a picture?

My plan is to make a flywheel with a 1/2" socket in the center to mate on to the cutter. The weight to aid in keeping the cutter engaged into cutting, and the rotating mass will help reducing chatter, which I find to be the main disadvantage of trying to use the cutters with the small cross bar handle.

I read your concerns about the possible risk of detonation in the combustion chamber, if I raise the compression ratio by protuding the valves into it. It is true that the chamber size will diminish by 1ccm by every millimeter that the valves are advanced into the chamber.

But do the concerns apply considering that I have unlimited access to high quality fuel of 100 octane rating. 92 and 95 octane is standad in all petrol stations here, and most Shell stations offer 100 octane as well, and I do not have to go out of my way to obtain it.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #320 - Yesterday at 13:42:39
 
I found this video very inspiring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsLaRlDAMF8

He uses a bearing. It's not that hard to use that principle for a simple strong back/hold.
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« Last Edit: Yesterday at 15:13:38 by zevenenergie »  

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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #321 - Today at 00:23:19
 
What can I say?  I am humiliated.  Paul X has got it goin on.  What a spectacular piece of machinery and engineering.  Never seen anything quite so sophisticated, and if I'm not mistaken, looks like he manufactures it from old, discarded junk.  Very, very, very impressive. Thanks for sharing Zevenenergie.  All's I can say is Paul X has my respect.  That is a very nice piece of engineering and craftsmanship.

My crude device can't compare, but it is simple and within reach of the average gearhead.   My experience with the Neway cutters is that they simply won't bite into the newer super-hard valve seat material.  They work OK when the seating area is very narrow, but as the area widens with the cut, you simply can't apply enough pressure to get the cutter to bite.  So, I came up with a simple strongback to apply pressure to the cutter.  Using the strongback, you only have to concentrate on turning the cutter.  The strongback applies constant and consistent feed pressure.

It will only work with a four-valve head.  The strongback assembly is installed in the adjacent valve guide.  That ensures that it will apply force perpendicular to the seat.  It uses a jack screw with a 60-degree center point.  That center point keeps the cutter drive running true and prevents it from tipping the cutter.  You turn the cutter with a common ratchet wrench.  The pull on the wrench is smooth and uniform.  It would be better if I had a wrench with two handles so I could push/pull to rotate the wrench (like a T-handle), but sometimes you just gotta make do with what you got.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #322 - Today at 00:28:06
 
You install the strongback assembly in the adjacent valve guide.  For instance, if you want to cut the right-hand exhaust valve seat, you install the strongback in the left-hand exhaust valve guide.  Then you set up the cutter pilot and cutter, and install a special driver on to the cutter.  The driver includes a socket assembly along with a wrench with a ratchet feature.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #323 - Today at 00:35:41
 
The drive utilizes an appropriate socket to engage the Neway cutter hex.  A 60-degree center is cut into the drive socket assembly.  That center is engaged by the jack screw on the strongback assembly.  You can either load up the jack screw with a wrench or incorporate a heavy spring like I did.  To be honest, the spring does not work as well as simply feeding the cutter in with the jack screw.  Sometimes simpler is better.

The strongback keeps things running true while applying ample pressure to the cutter.  It's not perfect, but it works pretty good.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #324 - Today at 01:08:59
 
Finn, your flywheel idea sounds very promising.  My experience with the Neway T-Handle driver has been less than gratifying.  Lots of chatter, uneven cuts, poor finish, etc..  It's just too hard to maintain uniform pressure while turning the T-handle.  A heavy flywheel might be just what the doctor ordered.  It would smooth out the rotating force and provide an absolute uniform cutting pressure.  Great idea.

Regarding octane, I think you guys in Europe use Motor octane while us guys in the States use R+M/2.  So, my 92 octane should be equivalent to your 96.  That 100 octane stuff you have available at the local Shell station would be like a 96 octane here.  Alas, I can only dream of 96 octane pump gas.  Who knows. you might be OK with the 100 octane Euro Gas.  All's I can tell you is that on 92 octane R+M/2 pump juice here in Hawaii, the 97mm pistons start experiencing detonation issues.  My 94mm pistons (stock, Wiseco Pop Top, & Wiseco Flat Top) all did fine.  No detonation on the 94mm pistons in any configuartion that I tried.  But the 97mm pistons seem to have a detonation issue.  The 97mm pop-top works fine with a stock cylinder height, but if you deck the cylinder to increase the compression ratio, it seems to detonate.  The 97mm flat-top already has big-league compression and it also seems to detonate.  I am working on a report.

I suggest you stay away from anything that reduces combustion chamber volume.  Shoot for 56 to 57 cc combustion chamber volume.   If you are worried about valve shrouding, grind the offending material away from the area around the seats. Don't try to make the seats proud in order to unshroud the valves.
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Re: Finn Hammer's Savage
Reply #325 - Today at 07:08:55
 
Mike, Thanks for the strongback description. A good way to cut the seats.

Regarding my seats, I will not argue against advice from an expert, so the stock guides stay in, and I will deshroud like I did with the present head.

zevenenergie, The seat cutter video showed the manufacture of a professional piece of machinery, which is over the top for someone like me, who is only going to make a single set of seats. But a fine video for sure, thanks for sharing.
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